We Need To Be Clear: Men Count Too!

[PrincesseJen]

While I'm happy the women are speaking up about the sexism issue we don't want to alienate the men. We have to let the media know that men as well are going Independent and will refuse to vote for Obama. Remember Obama is parading Edwards around Kentucky to get the white male vote. He doesn't seem interested in the woman vote. We don't want the men there thinking the revolt is just a woman thing. It might not look good to them. We can't have Obama pinning them against us. We're in it together. ;)

[brussell]

Never fear. Some men are just as ticked about this as women.

While I'm happy the women are speaking up about the sexism issue we don't want to alienate the men. We have to let the media know that men as well are going Independent and will refuse to vote for Obama. Remember Obama is parading Edwards around Kentucky to get the white male vote. He doesn't seem interested in the woman vote. We don't want the men there thinking the revolt is just a woman thing. It might not look good to them. We can't have Obama pinning them against us. We're in it together. ;)

[Sandy in PA]

Not to worry--the men are just as involved in this as the women!

[Soren]

Feminism is for all humans, not just women. The name should be changed to
HUMANISM
or ... maybe .... HUWOMANISM??


sexism from either men or women degrades both sexes, not just one.

[Catherine]

I think this is a good reminder. For me, it has less to do with sexism as it does attempting to thwart the process when each one's campaign is so close but the media and Obama are determined to try to cut Hillary and her campaign off at the knees.

I'm gratified that people are coming together over this issue regardless of whether it's perceived as sexism or shortchanging the democratic process.

[endodoc79]

Absolute agreement- it's the media calling this a women thing, and as our very own Murray had pointed out at the very beginning - it's a people thing. We can't let the media, which has been so biased pro-Obama and anti-Hillary during this whole primary season, define the movement. This is an anti-Obama, anti-elitist, pro-working class movement.

Received info on Operation Turndown the DNC -with Steve Corbett PA Radio host at wilk network that will continue today at 3 pm when as many people as possible will call the DNC (877-336-7200 or 202-863-8000) and let them know true Democrats will not vote for BO (http://wilknetwork.com/pages/322229.php)

[PrincesseJen]

Some of you say don't worry but I think we need to be cautious. WE know there are many men ticked off and will leave the party but not everyone else knows that. Remember it's all in how the media spins it. If the media keeps consentrating on just the women revolting [like on O'Reilly] that is how it's going to be instilled in peoples minds. If they get constant coverage of just women being mad they might not join the cause. We NEED to let the media know and people see that there are men on our side.

[mjoynaples]

rather than resorting to a character attack or smear campaign against her that is not even true... WE NEED THE BEST FOR OUR COUNTRY and it is clear that the DNC and all their cronies many of them are NOT LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE OF THE USA!!!!!!!

[Linda C]

Do you think that Senator Obama has not shown up in ||KY will not beobserved by the people. Do you think they are that stupid to realize what is going on. Do you think they don't see pandering of a bait and switch.

[ginamc]

Not to worry--the men are just as involved in this as the women!

My brother is going to KY this weekend. My older brother (deceased) lived in Louisville. Only one of my nephews lives there now, so my younger brother is going to visit him and take the opportunity to work for Hillary over the weekend.

My younger bro was an Edwards supporter and he is LIVID -- you know, when guys get angry, they're quiet and when you ask them what's wrong, they just kinda grunt... nothing. Well, he came by and had actual tears in his eyes about Edwards. I asked him what he thought about it, and he said, "Obviously, it's a Guy Thing -- what a bunch of pigs..." He was LIVID.. Why? He LOVES Hillary. Seriously, he loves her -- he really has a HUGE CRUSH on her. He prays for her daily and now goes to Mass every Sunday and once during the week -- for Hillary!!! My brother has transformed his way of thinking because of Hillary. He has seen the overt sexist attacks on her. He has written me and called me plenty of times, saying -- "those sexist, misogynistic pigs..." Well, he's going to KY. And, yes, there are REAL MEN who do get it. Look at how Hillary has transformed lives and she's not even our President YET... I know that she WILL transform out country too -- if she's just given the chance.

[PrincesseJen]

Do you think that Senator Obama has not shown up in ||KY will not beobserved by the people. Do you think they are that stupid to realize what is going on. Do you think they don't see pandering of a bait and switch.

Some people can obviously see it but he certainly has a way of brainwashing people to follow his lead. We can't understimate.

[shadow]

Nobody ever listens to me. I have said a million times - I am not supporting Hillary "because she is a woman", nor do I not support Ob "because he is black". I am supporting the best person for this job. I reject coruption and message of hate and divide.

I vote my country. That is Hillary, or MCain. OB is bad. I didn't create him. He made that bed, and I am getting sick of being blamed. I may be a woman, but I do have the common sense to see this for what it is.

[mooaks]

I am a man and I completely agree that there is over the top sexism being applied to this race. Anyone who watches MSNBC, CNN, you name the networks are all sexist, misogynistic any way you want to put it. MSNBC wouldn't be running a survey that is threaded on this forum if their ratings hadn't taken a tumble. WHY? We all know why.:mad::mad:

[ShyFire]

So right you are Princess!

We must be sure to keep gender neutral in our efforts- even though we all know- It takes a village of women to clean up dis house! =)

On the other hand- whatever it takes!

I am so thankful that there are national organizations taking this on, too! The Naral local chapters are phenomenal and our new friends in Ohio are getting national exposure... and of course, our very own Italian Kiss- Lisa!

'No, No, No- GOD BLESS AMERICA! NO OBAMA- EVER!

[mjoynaples]

My brother is going to KY this weekend. My older brother (deceased) lived in Louisville. Only one of my nephews lives there now, so my younger brother is going to visit him and take the opportunity to work for Hillary over the weekend.

My younger bro was an Edwards supporter and he is LIVID -- you know, when guys get angry, they're quiet and when you ask them what's wrong, they just kinda grunt... nothing. Well, he came by and had actual tears in his eyes about Edwards. I asked him what he thought about it, and he said, "Obviously, it's a Guy Thing -- what a bunch of pigs..." He was LIVID.. Why? He LOVES Hillary. Seriously, he loves her -- he really has a HUGE CRUSH on her. He prays for her daily and now goes to Mass every Sunday and once during the week -- for Hillary!!! My brother has transformed his way of thinking because of Hillary. He has seen the overt sexist attacks on her. He has written me and called me plenty of times, saying -- "those sexist, misogynistic pigs..." Well, he's going to KY. And, yes, there are REAL MEN who do get it. Look at how Hillary has transformed lives and she's not even our President YET... I know that she WILL transform out country too -- if she's just given the chance.

I think your brothers are great... (I go to church everyday or as often as I can for her too and pray, pray too...hearing this!) and also donate, make calls and write when able too... WE ARE SO grateful for their help and yes, feeling the love for HILLARY TOO!!!!SHE WILL I truly believe this will transform our country if we will VOTE HER INTO OFFICE!!!!!!

[PA_Voter]

While I'm happy the women are speaking up about the sexism issue we don't want to alienate the men. We have to let the media know that men as well are going Independent and will refuse to vote for Obama. Remember Obama is parading Edwards around Kentucky to get the white male vote. He doesn't seem interested in the woman vote. We don't want the men there thinking the revolt is just a woman thing. It might not look good to them. We can't have Obama pinning them against us. We're in it together. ;)
____________

I agree totally! But no fear... For those who WOMEN AND MEN have actually researched BO, they won't vote for him. They know he's way to inexperienced and severely lacks judgment and character--tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you who you are. Count my Brother in--he confirmed this just 2 days ago!

[Eddie3dfx]

I would say the amount of men who are as ticked that obama got the dnc backing is very high.
maybe 30-40% of the clinton supporters.

[Bacio83]

Men will stand with the women. The reason the word Democratic women is so powerful to democrats is we are the base. Women make up for 55% of our national population and 60% of them are democratic... This is a numbers game Hillary can win. We also have the Jewish vote which is the same split and the Hispanic vote which is the largest minority. When you start to pool us together and add the great men we are scaring them. But the word women the core base the large core base of voters... really can put the fear into them. :)

Just my two cents. But I agree we need to reiterate we're not alone as women we have friends.

[momoffiveforhillary]

ginamc- I love your brothers for realizing what is wrong with all of this. I've struggled this whole season to get my husband to see how real sexism is today. He justs shrugs and says, "Oh well, what are we supposed to do about it?" It makes me so mad that I could just scream. He's of the opinion that one person cannot make a difference. At least I know there are some men out there that get it!

[Santiago]

I am a man and I completely agree that there is over the top sexism being applied to this race. Anyone who watches MSNBC, CNN, you name the networks are all sexist, misogynistic any way you want to put it. MSNBC wouldn't be running a survey that is threaded on this forum if their ratings hadn't taken a tumble. WHY? We all know why.:mad::mad:

What mooaks said!

[LarryMac]

Unfortunately, if women had indeed supported Hillary in anywhere near the numbers blacks supported him, she would already have the nomination sewn up. I am certainly not a woman and am part of the backlash. I will be writing in Hillary if she loses the nomination, but hey, we are still a long way from Denver. Chins up!

[daniperez]

Agree- call DNC 3pm 5/16 Operation Turn Down


Absolute agreement- it's the media calling this a women thing, and as our very own Murray had pointed out at the very beginning - it's a people thing. We can't let the media, which has been so biased pro-Obama and anti-Hillary during this whole primary season, define the movement. This is an anti-Obama, anti-elitist, pro-working class movement.

Received info on Operation Turndown the DNC -with Steve Corbett PA Radio host at wilk network that will continue today at 3 pm when as many people as possible will call the DNC (877-336-7200 or 202-863-8000) and let them know true Democrats will not vote for BO (http://wilknetwork.com/pages/322229.php)

This is the first I've heard of this.

Is this 3pm eastern time?

I will definitely be calling ;)

[shadow]

A lot of our members here are men. We just don't know that until they tell us. :)

[NYVIN4HILL08]

i called and left an opinion to the dnc chairman secretry (i guess)
i said:

as a white male from ny, i will not vote for barack obama if he is nominated and will vote for john mccain and support the rnc.

she said ok thanks for calling.

[ZforHill]

While I'm happy the women are speaking up about the sexism issue we don't want to alienate the men. We have to let the media know that men as well are going Independent and will refuse to vote for Obama. Remember Obama is parading Edwards around Kentucky to get the white male vote. He doesn't seem interested in the woman vote. We don't want the men there thinking the revolt is just a woman thing. It might not look good to them. We can't have Obama pinning them against us. We're in it together. ;)

I'm a man, and I don't give a f*ck. Go ahead women! Have your moment! I'm with ya'll a 110%


Screw me and my *****. ;)

[ZforHill]

Most men know there is sexism there, and many, if not all of us, take part in it. Unknowingly.

[Sandy in PA]

I'm a man, and I don't give a f*ck. Go ahead women! Have your moment! I'm with ya'll a 110%

ZforHIll--I think I love you!!! LOL!!!:):):)

[ScottVA]

ON THE CONTRARY! I think WOMEN need to keep up their protest! You GUYS OR GALS ACTUALLY need to NOT underestimate your strength! I think you've done this for far too long and look what it has gotten you! I don't think you have to worry about alienating men who are diehard Hillary supporters (I'm one and not alienated by your move) GO FOR IT! I think most men who support Hillary will never support him because they see, LIKE I DO, that he's a MAJOR NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT!

[Suzan]

Excellent point. We want the guys with us, all the way. I don't think that's any problem at all in this group, but we do need to be careful about the perceptions out there. This not anti-men in any way!

[LetsHelpAmerica]

While I'm happy the women are speaking up about the sexism issue we don't want to alienate the men. We have to let the media know that men as well are going Independent and will refuse to vote for Obama. Remember Obama is parading Edwards around Kentucky to get the white male vote. He doesn't seem interested in the woman vote. We don't want the men there thinking the revolt is just a woman thing. It might not look good to them. We can't have Obama pinning them against us. We're in it together. ;)

This is an excellent reminder! We all know that this entire campaign has involved gender bashing and sexism....... HOWEVER, we need to follow Hillary's lead..... She never mentions gender much at all because she knows they can use that against us! Look what they did in New Hampshire!!! So, we must ALWAYS preface everything with the FACT that we are voting for Hillary because she's the more experienced, dedicated and able candidate and she best represents what the democratic party is SUPPOSED to represent!!

[PrincesseJen]

ON THE CONTRARY! I think WOMEN need to keep up their protest! You GUYS OR GALS ACTUALLY need to NOT underestimate your strength! I think you've done this for far too long and look what it has gotten you! I don't think you have to worry about alienating men who are diehard Hillary supporters (I'm one and not alienated by your move) GO FOR IT! I think most men who support Hillary will never support him because they see, LIKE I DO, that he's a MAJOR NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT!

Nobody should stop they're protesting but we need the media attention not souly on the women. They need to show America the men are in it as well. I don't want them painting one picture and not showing everything.

[ZforHill]

ZforHIll--I think I love you!!! LOL!!!:):):)

<3 :D Right back at ya!

[winterlongone]

ON THE CONTRARY! I think WOMEN need to keep up their protest! You GUYS OR GALS ACTUALLY need to NOT underestimate your strength! I think you've done this for far too long and look what it has gotten you! I don't think you have to worry about alienating men who are diehard Hillary supporters (I'm one and not alienated by your move) GO FOR IT! I think most men who support Hillary will never support him because they see, LIKE I DO, that he's a MAJOR NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT!

thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!!

it is men like you that give women like me hope for us to move forward together!!!

[Musicdude]

Nobody should stop they're protesting but we need the media attention not souly on the women. They need to show America the men are in it as well. I don't want them painting one picture and not showing everything. Excellent point. I have noticed the media keeps making comments about Hillary supporters - "those women" as if to imply that this is just a women's movement for Hillary rather than an American movement. If they are sexist to begin with, then they'll just dismiss the issue of not voting for Obama, as "just some woman issue" rather than an all encompasing voter issue.

[Artists4Hillary]

The point is, they are insulting all of Hillary's supporters, women AND men. As Hillary said, she is held up to a double standard, and so are her supporters.

[ZforHill]

Nobody should stop they're protesting but we need the media attention not souly on the women. They need to show America the men are in it as well. I don't want them painting one picture and not showing everything.

They do paint with the brighest colors though. :p But yea, your'e right, maybe a youtube video of men supporting the women supporting Hillary would do the trick. Send the link to a few bloggers, AND Hannity since he's most responsive, and maybe it'll catch on.

[ScottVA]

Nobody should stop they're protesting but we need the media attention not souly on the women. They need to show America the men are in it as well. I don't want them painting one picture and not showing everything.

OH AGAIN, ON THE CONTRARY! I think the media should be focusing on the women with this issue! YOU GUYS UNDERESTIMATE YOUR NUMBERS TIME AND TIME AGAIN! It's definitely time for women to stand up and assert themselves.... it will make men think more that you need to be listened to more. TAKE IT FROM ME.... I'm a man and I can see it! I've never seen such blatant sexism as I've seen from the media and Party heads as I've seen in this Primary cycle! I'm not the only man saying this either... it's almost unbelievable!

[Kbentleyis]

Jen is right. We have to show that "all of us are in this together." It is all of us that see what a game the DNC has allowed to happen in this election. WE THE PEOPLE are not standing by and let this travesty happen to our country.

[hillarymyhero]

Men are as smart as women. All smart men and women can see clearly what's happening in broken DNC without any good leadership....It is already chaotic with Obamabot......:D

[ScottVA]

I agree... BUT ONCE AGAIN YOU GUYS SEEM TO BE MISSING THE MARK! PUSH YOUR MAJORITY IN THIS COUNTRY... MAKE PEOPLE SIT UP AND RECOGNIZE YOUR A FORCE TO BE DEALT WITH.... Men don't take women seriously sometimes because they feel you're easily manipulated (because you won't do anything about it). I think this is great that women are finally tired of taking the shit and doing something about it. You do have men behind you and we're also objecting to what is going on.... did you ever think that you could be drowning us out because there are more of you? LOL I say that as a good thing! It means the point you guys are making is starting to take hold and be taken seriously! Why do you think in the past few days the media is starting to talk about you guys more and more as not backing Obama! It is making the Obama camp nervous and it's starting to show! LOL

[Viktoriya]

Real man can not stand and watch when woman is treated that bad.

[ScottVA]

Real man can not stand and watch when woman is treated that bad.

I agree... ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Time to stop taking the high road and start hitting them where it hurts! :-)

[PrincesseJen]

OH AGAIN, ON THE CONTRARY! I think the media should be focusing on the women with this issue! YOU GUYS UNDERESTIMATE YOUR NUMBERS TIME AND TIME AGAIN! It's definitely time for women to stand up and assert themselves.... it will make men think more that you need to be listened to more. TAKE IT FROM ME.... I'm a man and I can see it! I've never seen such blatant sexism as I've seen from the media and Party heads as I've seen in this Primary cycle! I'm not the only man saying this either... it's almost unbelievable!

I honestly don't know if your posts help or not. But this is what I'm talking about. If you go to the video with the O'Rielly show and look at some of the comments you'll see what I mean.

haaa haaa hooooooo! even BILL THINKS THESE LADIES ARE KOOKS! where did he find these crazys? funny though!

These women are crazy. First of all the Obama campaign isn't responsibe for any sexist comments that any one ever made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8R1IhB5SEk#F9aaHQ2Zdq8

[ScottVA]

[QUOTE=PrincesseJen;108472]I honestly don't know if your posts help or not. But this is what I'm talking about. If you go to the video with the O'Rielly show and look at some of the comments you'll see what I mean.

OK Jen, I'm sorry but DO YOU believe EVERY comment you read on blog sites? I hope not because there are TONS of Obamanots out there that live on these blogs to discount anything coming out of the Hillary camp! Don't be so gullible.... You know I've been around politics A LONG time and I can tell you that this is the first time I've ever heard this much outcry from any one group of people. Not only that but that it seems to be making a difference because it's being recognized.... Believe me I'm helping here. I think you discount yourselves too much! Look what it has gotten you guys so far... don't piss the opportunity down the toilet now because you read silly comments from Obamanots!...

[ScottVA]

This is the response you're going to see from the other side so of course it's going to appear negative! You don't honestly think they're going to embrace you and accept what you're doing.... you just have to do it and not pay attention to the naysayers.... those naysayers will never side with you anyway...

[PrincesseJen]

[quote=PrincesseJen;108472]I honestly don't know if your posts help or not. But this is what I'm talking about. If you go to the video with the O'Rielly show and look at some of the comments you'll see what I mean.

OK Jen, I'm sorry but DO YOU believe EVERY comment you read on blog sites? I hope not because there are TONS of Obamanots out there that live on these blogs to discount anything coming out of the Hillary camp! Don't be so gullible.... You know I've been around politics A LONG time and I can tell you that this is the first time I've ever heard this much outcry from any one group of people. Not only that but that it seems to be making a difference because it's being recognized.... Believe me I'm helping here. I think you discount yourselves too much! Look what it has gotten you guys so far... don't piss the opportunity down the toilet now because you read silly comments from Obamanots!...

Again, I still don't know what your talking about. I'm not discrediting myself or any other women. I don't know how you got that from any of my posts. The is about EQUAL opportunity. We need to let people know that this movement is a combined effort of Clinton supporters. If we don't I can see the headlines now "Crazy women distroy democratic party". They will try to make us look like the enemy. Also, I'm not gullible. I've been battling Obamabots online since South Carolina. I know how they operate.

[shadow]

[QUOTE=PrincesseJen;108472]I honestly don't know if your posts help or not. But this is what I'm talking about. If you go to the video with the O'Rielly show and look at some of the comments you'll see what I mean.

OK Jen, I'm sorry but DO YOU believe EVERY comment you read on blog sites? I hope not because there are TONS of Obamanots out there that live on these blogs to discount anything coming out of the Hillary camp! Don't be so gullible.... You know I've been around politics A LONG time and I can tell you that this is the first time I've ever heard this much outcry from any one group of people. Not only that but that it seems to be making a difference because it's being recognized.... Believe me I'm helping here. I think you discount yourselves too much! Look what it has gotten you guys so far... don't piss the opportunity down the toilet now because you read silly comments from Obamanots!...


Scott is right. Please please don't try to chase away the male supporters here.

[ScottVA]

[quote=ScottVA;108480]

Again, I still don't know what your talking about. I'm not discrediting myself or any other women. I don't know how you got that from any of my posts. The is about EQUAL opportunity. We need to let people know that this movement is a combined effort of Clinton supporters. If we don't I can see the headlines now "Crazy women distroy democratic party". They will try to make us look like the enemy. Also, I'm not gullible. I've been battling Obamabots online since South Carolina. I know how they operate.

Can I tell you something... You're going to see headlines regardless of what you or anyone else does... the MSM has a clear agenda so even if you did nothing you'll see something negative about that too. I think people are getting good at reading between the lines because even my Republican friends have taken notice about the media and have commented to me about how biased it is... that they don't even believe half of what they read anymore.

[PrincesseJen]

[quote=ScottVA;108480]


Scott is right. Please please don't try to chase away the male supporters here.

What are you talking about????!! How am I chasing away male supporters?? They want to be apart of this effort.

[ScottVA]

[quote=ScottVA;108480]


Scott is right. Please please don't try to chase away the male supporters here.

She's not chasing me away... I'm just trying to get her to understand that no matter what you do there will be something negative written.... even if you did nothing there would be something negative written... so why not do something if it's going to be written as negative anyway.... Again, I think most people can see the MSM has an agenda by now. Talking to WV voters I was told that even they were smart enough to know what they were seeing on NBC, ABC, CBS, et al was a little hard to believe at times.

[PrincesseJen]

[quote=PrincesseJen;108497]

Can I tell you something... You're going to see headlines regardless of what you or anyone else does... the MSM has a clear agenda so even if you did nothing you'll see something negative about that too. I think people are getting good at reading between the lines because even my Republican friends have taken notice about the media and have commented to me about how biased it is... that they don't even believe half of what they read anymore.

I know I'm going to see headlines and people will hate Hillary until the end of time and nothing we can do can change that. All I'm asking is for a little equality with the coverage of people leaving the Democratic party. That's it! Am I asking for too much??

[ScottVA]

It's not too much to ask but I wouldn't expect to see it much ... sorry to say! Besides why do you think you need men to drive your cause? Women are more then capable of handing their own affairs! You guys are the dominate voting block in this Country.... if all women stuck together this wouldn't even be an issue because Hillary would be the nominee by now!

[ZY123]

While I'm happy the women are speaking up about the sexism issue we don't want to alienate the men. We have to let the media know that men as well are going Independent and will refuse to vote for Obama. Remember Obama is parading Edwards around Kentucky to get the white male vote. He doesn't seem interested in the woman vote. We don't want the men there thinking the revolt is just a woman thing. It might not look good to them. We can't have Obama pinning them against us. We're in it together. ;)

I agree partially. I agree in that the media coverage is taking the wrong focus. They are painting it like we are basing our decision to refuse to vote for Obama based on emotions only by emphasizing the sexism issue (and presenting it emotionally). That in itself purports the stereotype that women only think emotionally not logically. So while the sexism is part of it we need to make sure FACTS are emphasized rather than how we FEEL (IMO). We also need to make sure the policy reasons we won't vote for BO get out there also (foreign policy, tax policy, lack of knowledge on tax policy, questionable character in dealing with foreign countries...etc.).

Let's make sure the media covers our refusal to vote for Obama based on the rational and logical reasons behind it (which can include sexism) not just emotional reasons.

[PrincesseJen]

It's not too much to ask but I wouldn't expect to see it much ... sorry to say! Besides why do you think you need men to drive your cause? Women are more then capable of handing their own affairs! You guys are the dominate voting block in this Country.... if all women stuck together this wouldn't even be an issue because Hillary would be the nominee by now!

Look, I'm an independent woman who doesn't need a man to do anything for me. But why do it alone when you don't have to? It's called strength in numbers.

[ScottVA]

Rigel I agree that would be the way to take that issue... to push it as not so much a vote against him because he's a womanizer... but because he sucks on the issues!

To be honest for me... while I think he sucks on both of my 2 earlier points.... My reason for not voting for him on any account... he's a MAJOR NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT to the US. That is the most important reason not to vote for him!

[ScottVA]

Look, I'm an independent woman who doesn't need a man to do anything for me. But why do it alone when you don't have to? It's called strength in numbers.

Well I hate to say it because you have a point but don't count on getting a lot of outspoken male support on this issue. I'm sorry but I'm being realistic. You will get a lot of male support otherwise but this has to be a battle that only women (AGAIN that are the largest voting block in the US) can battle.

[PrincesseJen]

Well I hate to say it because you have a point but don't count on getting a lot of outspoken male support on this issue. I'm sorry but I'm being realistic. You will get a lot of male support otherwise but this has to be a battle that only women (AGAIN that are the largest voting block in the US) can battle.

Now are you discrediting men. :rolleyes: I use to think if Hillary ran that NO man would vote for her. They've surprised me thus far so have faith they'll do the right thing. ;)

[ZY123]

My reason for not voting for him on any account... he's a MAJOR NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT to the US. That is the most important reason not to vote for him!

Turn on Fox, he's defending his reason for TALKS with IRAN now (a ridiculous naive proposal btw).

[ScottVA]

Of course he is..... Bush busted his ass and he knows it now he's got to talk publically about these things. It's a good thing because it's going to scare a lot of moderate and conservative Dems even further away from him should he be the nominee.

[Brooke]

Jen makes a great point, but I want to echo everybody else's thoughts. I have plenty of guy friends who are just as angry about this as I am and it's not a feminist thing.

Thing is, I haven't had to defend why I've supported Hillary on the basis of gender. It's been more about race and being called a racist for supporting her (and being a Clinton supporter in general) than anything else. I've never been called one in my entire life until this year. And I'm supposed to look at Obama as the "great unifer" when apparently I've learned that ever since I was 13 years old, I've been a racist??? Are you flipping serious???

[Suzan]

Hey, guys, you're both right. Scott makes an excellent point. Women need to stand up for themselves whether men support them or not. We have the numbers. We have the voices, and we can do it. But in this case, lots of men do support us and we want them with us, which is what Jen's trying to say! Make sure men know they're included and wanted, that's all.

So, I hear both of you--and agree with both of you!

[shadow]

[quote=shadow;108501]

What are you talking about????!! How am I chasing away male supporters?? They want to be apart of this effort.

What I am talking about is that we have a man suporting this movement, and your post came across as telling him he doesn't belong.

[Suzan]

Dear God, he's on Fox now and he's rambling all over the place. Can anyone follow him on this stuff?!

[Mary K]

While I'm happy the women are speaking up about the sexism issue we don't want to alienate the men. We have to let the media know that men as well are going Independent and will refuse to vote for Obama. Remember Obama is parading Edwards around Kentucky to get the white male vote. He doesn't seem interested in the woman vote. We don't want the men there thinking the revolt is just a woman thing. It might not look good to them. We can't have Obama pinning them against us. We're in it together. ;)

The men understand what's going on more than many women. They know how power plays out They are coming over to Hillary in droves because they realize that it is the good old boy network that has grabbed on to Obama as a last gasp to maintain exclusive power. Once Hillary breaks the ultimate glass ceiling the flood gates will be open and most men will welcome our participation and partnerships. They know that we all need to be involved in creating solutions to the problems of today.

[ZY123]

Of course he is..... Bush busted his ass and he knows it now he's got to talk publically about these things. It's a good thing because it's going to scare a lot of moderate and conservative Dems even further away from him should he be the nominee.

He's also trying to make this an emotional issue - his general message seems to be: we want out of Iraq so we need to negotiate with the enemies . Getting out of Iraq does NOT mean meeting with negotiating with terrorists/enemies (HAMAS!). Negotiating with Iran does NOT save soldiers now.

[ScottVA]

You have LOTS AND LOTS of men supporting the cause. The point I was trying to make to Jen is that don't expect it to become an outward public movement.... I hate to say... Im speaking in general about this... You will get a lot of support from men otherwise.

I can tell you the reason the younger girls support Obama is because they know nothing about the womans movement. They don't see when they are being played by men because they're too naive to see it. I think that is because things got to complacent in the US as far as the women pushing their agenda in the 80s and 90s. Womens lib sort of died .... maybe it's time to pick it back up! No time like the present to get your point across... hell the media is providing enough fuel right now that even men are noticing it.

[PrincesseJen]

[quote=PrincesseJen;108508]

What I am talking about is that we have a man suporting this movement, and your post came across as telling him he doesn't belong.

I was implying he didn't belong. This is not just a woman's movement. I love it when women speak they're mind because they're empowered. But I don't want them to be completely singled out as if they stand alone.

[ScottVA]

He's also trying to make this an emotional issue - his general message seems to be: we want out of Iraq so we need to negotiate with the enemies . Getting out of Iraq does NOT mean meeting with negotiating with terrorists/enemies (HAMAS!). Negotiating with Iran does NOT save soldiers now.

If Bambi gets in office all of what we have or haven't accomplished in Iraq (and all those billions of hard earned tax dollars) will be down the toilet because Iran is looking to take over Iraq. They've been trying to do it for 30 years. Why do you think Saddam was (in a way) not an entirely bad thing to have parked in Iraq and why do you think Bush 1 left him there after the Gulf War? He was the lesser of two evils.... Bush 1 knew if we took out Saddam then we'd have to deal wit Iran and it was a very smart move on his part.... then sonny boy comes along and F*CKS the whole thing up. Now we've Bambi on the scene and he KNOWS NOTHING about foreign policy.... It's a very scary point!

[ZY123]

Now we've Bambi on the scene and he KNOWS NOTHING about foreign policy.... It's a very scary point!

Right - and this is why I say yes the sexism issue is important but we also need to push the issue reasons not to vote for Obama. Hillary's foreign policy is tough and that's the kind of foreign policy we need - we do not compromise or sit down with terrorists or other threats to this country - that only legitimizes them.

[PrincesseJen]

Right - and this is why I say yes the sexism issue is important but we also need to push the issue reasons not to vote for Obama. Hillary's foreign policy is tough and that's the kind of foreign policy we need - we do not compromise or sit down with terrorists or other threats to this country - that only legitimizes them.

This is also what I'm talking about. That's why we need the media to also acknowledge that men in strong numbers will also switch parties and not vote for Obama. There are MANY reasons not to vote for Obama but if the MSM only talk about the women it's going to come off as an issue of sexism. The interview with O'Rielly was souly just that. Which is a good reason and sexism should not be tolerated. But some women (like me) are a little more conserned with how devastating an Obama presidencey would be because of his poor understanding of the issues and lack of experience.

[shadow]

[quote=shadow;108567]

I was implying he didn't belong. This is not just a woman's movement. I love it when women speak they're mind because they're empowered. But I don't want them to be completely singled out as if they stand alone.


I agree with you. But as Scott has said, the media is not going to change. They will continue to claim this is "angry women". I can live with that. If the point is made that the media is biased, and it has to be portrayed as "a women" issue, I can take it however we can get it. It helps a lot to have men speaking up. But, I seriously doubt the media will give them coverage. We all want OB and his dangerous agenda gone. That is the goal, as I see it.

[shadow]

OB said: Obama said McCain had a "naive and irresponsible belief that tough talk from Washington will somehow cause Iran to give up its nuclear program and support for terrorism."

OB is the one who is naive. Talking with Iran will not make them "give up nukes". The US has to talk tough, and Iran knows full well we can back that up. Hillary said the same thing.

It was "talking tough" (John Kennedy) that made the Russians remove the missles from Cuba. OB needs to study history.

[ZY123]

This is also what I'm talking about. That's why we need the media to also acknowledge that men in strong numbers will also switch parties and not vote for Obama. There are MANY reasons not to vote for Obama but if the MSM only talk about the women it's going to come off as an issue of sexism. The interview with O'Rielly was souly just that. Which is a good reason and sexism should not be tolerated. But some women (like me) are a little more conserned with how devastating an Obama presidencey would be because of his poor understanding of the issues and lack of experience.


Yes - you know what else the media has done...they have tried to paint this picture that Obama and Hillary are the same on the issues (with only slight differences). This is complete BS. Especially on foreign policy. I think the media has thrown this "sameness" point out there to try to de-legitimize those Hillary supporters to refuse to vote for Obama.

Maybe we should make a thread emphasizing the policy differences between Obama and Hillary and how significant those differences are.

[cowymom]

While I'm happy the women are speaking up about the sexism issue we don't want to alienate the men. We have to let the media know that men as well are going Independent and will refuse to vote for Obama. Remember Obama is parading Edwards around Kentucky to get the white male vote. He doesn't seem interested in the woman vote. We don't want the men there thinking the revolt is just a woman thing. It might not look good to them. We can't have Obama pinning them against us. We're in it together. ;)


Just think about Sen. Casey, Kennedy and Kerry. they couldn't deliver the catholic vote and they are well known than edwards. I'm not afraid but this shouldn't mean we should relax

[endodoc79]

I posted this earlier in this thread. Just a reminder, you an listen to Steve Corbett, from Hillary's family hometown, Scranton PA

http://wilknetwork.com/pages/322229.php

and while you're listening to why he's turning down BO you

can call the DNC at 877-336-7200

and tell them why you're part of operation turn down BO.
I just did- had to wait on hold a few minutes, then someone took down my message, he said Howard Dean was reading them???

[Peppermint Patty]

My brother is going to KY this weekend. My older brother (deceased) lived in Louisville. Only one of my nephews lives there now, so my younger brother is going to visit him and take the opportunity to work for Hillary over the weekend.

My younger bro was an Edwards supporter and he is LIVID -- you know, when guys get angry, they're quiet and when you ask them what's wrong, they just kinda grunt... nothing. Well, he came by and had actual tears in his eyes about Edwards. I asked him what he thought about it, and he said, "Obviously, it's a Guy Thing -- what a bunch of pigs..." He was LIVID.. Why? He LOVES Hillary. Seriously, he loves her -- he really has a HUGE CRUSH on her. He prays for her daily and now goes to Mass every Sunday and once during the week -- for Hillary!!! My brother has transformed his way of thinking because of Hillary. He has seen the overt sexist attacks on her. He has written me and called me plenty of times, saying -- "those sexist, misogynistic pigs..." Well, he's going to KY. And, yes, there are REAL MEN who do get it. Look at how Hillary has transformed lives and she's not even our President YET... I know that she WILL transform out country too -- if she's just given the chance.

Wow, I love your brother just from this alone! Yes, this is more than a women thing and there are plenty of men with us.

[Musicdude]

[]

We need to let people know that this movement is a combined effort of Clinton supporters. If we don't I can see the headlines now "Crazy women distroy democratic party". They will try to make us look like the enemy. . Your point was supported today by how Limbaugh referred to the two women on OReilly. He acknowledged the sexism, but made it appear that that was the only issue - gender issue, revolving around just one particular demographic of Clinton voters. What is lost in the translation is that Hillary is the best candidate for the presidency, and Obama is an extremely flawed candidate. Limbaugh bashes Obama for many many reasons like we do, but it was evident that he didn't see that as "our" message as well.

[shadow]

We need to let people know that this movement is a combined effort of Clinton supporters. If we don't I can see the headlines now "Crazy women distroy democratic party". They will try to make us look like the enemy. .

They already do say that. We are now, and always have, been blamed for "dividing the party". I am open for suggestion,,,but frankly? I can live with it, as long as OB goes away. My goal is saving this country first.

[Lodi]

This seems relevant to repost here:

Where is a powerful, lucid surrogate for Hillary?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With the exception of our Lisa, as well as Lanny Davis, I haven't heard one surrogate speak to all the concerns we have with this primary process. The women who recently started pro-Hillary protest groups (Not So Fast, etc.) did not, imo, use their airtime wisely.

Even Janet Hall (or whatever her name is) who just (2:30 pm Pacific) spoke with the "blonde sweetie" on Fox did not do the best possible job. When speaking about sexism and misogyny, she didn't even reference the MAD AS HELL video or come armed with MSM quotes. That's how you make the case for the accusation: with evidence that can't be refuted or excused (especially by a female newscaster, which weakens our case). (AND, she didn't even point out that Ted Kennedy was over 700 delegates behind the frontrunner in 2004, and no one tried to push him out of the race!)

Instead, the media are about to poo-poo, trivialize, and dismiss what are valid claims.

Not only that, it isn't just a case of sexism that we protest! We're protesting also the disenfranchisement of two states. And when reporters bring up "the rules," I haven't heard one person give the right answer: WE DON'T CARE ABOUT RULES THAT WE HAD NO SAY IN! We know all candidates agreed, and they were all wrong, even Hillary, imo...BUT, at least Hillary wants to rectify the situation, which is not completely necessarily in her favor. Lots of AA vote in Mich. If they revote, it could be close. (And a new kind of pol doesn't run under the cover of a party umbrella, either, but that's a whole other story.)

However, Obamination MUST BE HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD! The one he set up for himself when he touted himself as both an agent of change and a different kind of politician. Why didn't he speak out against the rules from the beginning?? THAT would have been what a different kind of pol should do.
The deceit of the party hacks, the railroading of Obama into the nod, the sexism, the clear MSM bias, and the disenfranchisement together make for a large and legitimate protest.

Is there anyone--any surrogate whatsoever--who can make the case for Hillary? I'm starting to think not. And what we might be left with is talking heads and Ob surrogates accusing us of being whining crybabies yelling foul. Sore losers. Sour grapes.

And we all know this is not and far from the case!

Phew.

Thanks for letting me vent!!!!!!!!!!

[nette60]

Excellent point. I have noticed the media keeps making comments about Hillary supporters - "those women" as if to imply that this is just a women's movement for Hillary rather than an American movement. If they are sexist to begin with, then they'll just dismiss the issue of not voting for Obama, as "just some woman issue" rather than an all encompasing voter issue.

It's all media and Obama camp spin to make us feel likes it's only a woman thing..Its a people thing! A right and wrong thing!

[shadow]

To be honest, I am beginning to feel as if we women are no longer wanted, here, or with the campaign. I am glad the media has noticed women, at all. This is the first election women have been able to make them notice we matter. I can live with being blamed, as long as it gets OB gone.

I am now leaning more and more into MCain camp, and some of these posts here making me feel ashamed for being a woman who refuses to shut up is helping move me out.

and what is this "secret forum"?

[ZY123]

Your point was supported today by how Limbaugh referred to the two women on OReilly. He acknowledged the sexism, but made it appear that that was the only issue - gender issue, revolving around just one particular demographic of Clinton voters. What is lost in the translation is that Hillary is the best candidate for the presidency, and Obama is an extremely flawed candidate. Limbaugh bashes Obama for many many reasons like we do, but it was evident that he didn't see that as "our" message as well.

Right! We need to communicate through logic rather than emotion. We all know we have valid points (policy reasons) for never supporting Obama but those are the messages we need to relay to the media not the emotional ones. Even if the emotional reason are true we need to emphasize the logical ones because the emotional reasons play into negative stereotypes (no matter how true the emotional reasons may be).

[Lodi]

To be honest, I am beginning to feel as if we women are no longer wanted, here, or with the campaign. I am glad the media has noticed women, at all. This is the first election women have been able to make them notice we matter. I can live with being blamed, as long as it gets OB gone.

I am now leaning more and more into MCain camp, and some of these posts here making me feel ashamed for being a woman who refuses to shut up is helping move me out.

and what is this "secret forum"?

Please don't leave! Of course you--we women--are wanted. Our candidate is a woman! Maybe try reading my post (above), which is kinda long, but just the second and fourth paragraphs (one line by itself counts as a paragraph). See if maybe we agree?? It's all in the presentation in my opinion. Anyway, we love you. Don't go!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[ZY123]

To be honest, I am beginning to feel as if we women are no longer wanted, here, or with the campaign. I am glad the media has noticed women, at all. This is the first election women have been able to make them notice we matter. I can live with being blamed, as long as it gets OB gone.

I am now leaning more and more into MCain camp, and some of these posts here making me feel ashamed for being a woman who refuses to shut up is helping move me out.

I think you're misreading, everyone one here is with you - we're for Hillary and we're with you to protest the a**holes called the DNC! The argument is just how to best get the message across that's all. =)

[PrincesseJen]

Your point was supported today by how Limbaugh referred to the two women on OReilly. He acknowledged the sexism, but made it appear that that was the only issue - gender issue, revolving around just one particular demographic of Clinton voters. What is lost in the translation is that Hillary is the best candidate for the presidency, and Obama is an extremely flawed candidate. Limbaugh bashes Obama for many many reasons like we do, but it was evident that he didn't see that as "our" message as well.

That's what I feared.

[ScottVA]

You know I can't believe some of you are still obsessing about this..... We were discussing this earlier and it seems a mans point of view goes on deaf ear....

WHY IN THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS WORRIED ABOUT THIS?
I really think, at this stage of the game, you're looking at a 4th quarter game with 5 minutes to play.... this is not time to sit and ponder and dwell over whether or not women should stand up and fight! If we were in February I might say something completely different here. I'm curious what the alternative is going to be if you don't pull out the big guns and fire your way to the finish line!

Listen.... no matter WHAT YOU DO you will get bad press... sit and do nothing = bad press.... stand up and fight = bad press... either way you, perception might say you're screwed... In a case like this I would think anyone would choose to fight instead of playing devils advocate about whether it's right or wrong.... Frankly, you've run out of a lot of options (not by your own choosing)...

NOW, if you're going to sit around and listen to pundits IE- Limbaugh and O'Reilly who HAVE THEIR OWN AGENDAS WHICH DON'T REALLY INCLUDE YOU... then I suggest you sit and do nothing.... LOL Frankly, those guys are in it for McCain NOT Hillary...even if they seem to balance things out from time to time. Just about every other talking head is supporting Obama... SO YOU REALLY HAVEN'T MANY FRIENDS in the MEDIA. Knowing this, then why sit and care what they say....??

I think if you keep doing what your doing... rise up , raise your voice, show your power (which you have A LOT more then you realize) both in votes and buying power to our economy.... whether it gets bad press or not isn't the issue... PEOPLE ARE NOTICING! I've talked to several MEN today who see the constant spin by the media and see a women's movement blowing in the wind again... It's up to you to how far you take it but my money is behind you that you're making a bigger difference then you realize.... I mean COME ON, look now at people taking notice of what you've complained about for months! How can you sit there and wonder whether this is the right or wrong way if what you're doing is getting attention and RESULTS!

[ZY123]

^^LOL. I don't think the question is whether to stand up and fight but instead how to do so most effectively. =) I'm just saying let's fight in a way that doesn't further that "emotional" woman stereotype.

btw...you are spot on about the Fox pundits...they are in for McCain and everything they do goes towards that goal.

[Lodi]

I personally contend, as I said in a previous post, that it's the lack of an articulate, lucid spokesperson that's really the problem.

[ScottVA]

I personally contend, as I said in a previous post, that it's the lack of an articulate, lucid spokesperson that's really the problem.

I would agree about a messenger being lucid and articulate but in a crisis you work with what you've got...

[shadow]

You know I can't believe some of you are still obsessing about this..... We were discussing this earlier and it seems a mans point of view goes on deaf ear....

WHY IN THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS WORRIED ABOUT THIS?
I really think, at this stage of the game, you're looking at a 4th quarter game with 5 minutes to play.... this is not time to sit and ponder and dwell over whether or not women should stand up and fight! If we were in February I might say something completely different here. I'm curious what the alternative is going to be if you don't pull out the big guns and fire your way to the finish line!

Listen.... no matter WHAT YOU DO you will get bad press... sit and do nothing = bad press.... stand up and fight = bad press... either way you, perception might say you're screwed... In a case like this I would think anyone would choose to fight instead of playing devils advocate about whether it's right or wrong.... Frankly, you've run out of a lot of options (not by your own choosing)...

NOW, if you're going to sit around and listen to pundits IE- Limbaugh and O'Reilly who HAVE THEIR OWN AGENDAS WHICH DON'T REALLY INCLUDE YOU... then I suggest you sit and do nothing.... LOL Frankly, those guys are in it for McCain NOT Hillary...even if they seem to balance things out from time to time. Just about every other talking head is supporting Obama... SO YOU REALLY HAVEN'T MANY FRIENDS in the MEDIA. Knowing this, then why sit and care what they say....??

I think if you keep doing what your doing... rise up , raise your voice, show your power (which you have A LOT more then you realize) both in votes and buying power to our economy.... whether it gets bad press or not isn't the issue... PEOPLE ARE NOTICING! I've talked to several MEN today who see the constant spin by the media and see a women's movement blowing in the wind again... It's up to you to how far you take it but my money is behind you that you're making a bigger difference then you realize.... I mean COME ON, look now at people taking notice of what you've complained about for months! How can you sit there and wonder whether this is the right or wrong way if what you're doing is getting attention and RESULTS!


Thank you Scott! I completely agree and am done with giving one damn how the media "perceives" me. I am glad they have finally noticed we are even here. If I can help take OB down, and if that pisses anyone off "because I am a woman", I can deal. If "they" don't like it, too bad. I am not shutting up now because some media person "doesn't like vocal women" daring to speak up or go against their own agenda. If we have the power to get rid of OB, good. I don't give one damn if the media doesn't like that.

[ZY123]

I would agree about a messenger being lucid and articulate but in a crisis you work with what you've got...

We can all work to make our message be lucid and articulate though yeah? I'm just saying let's play their game against them - let's present controlled arguments (talking points =0!) designed to persuade them to see our view.

I see it as this is business - how you present your message is as important as what you present...so if we collectively decide to present our arguments in a way that makes them sit up and say "hey this is serious and they have a point", that's when we've really accomplished something.

[shadow]

Originally Posted by PrincesseJen


We need to let people know that this movement is a combined effort of Clinton supporters. If we don't I can see the headlines now "Crazy women distroy democratic party". They will try to make us look like the enemy

I don't care. To Ob, his supporters, the media, I am the enemy. And you can bet I relish it. It is time women were heard and we have a chance to make a real difference. If I am called "the enemy", then it just shows this system is flawed. It is exposing it all, and I will not go quietly into that good night, nor be "a nice little lady", nor allow the media to dictate what I think, feel, say, or for whom I vote.

Nor will I accept another woman tell me, in a backdoor way, to "stop being emotional, in other words, be a good democrat and fall in line, behind the messiah".

[ScottVA]

March On Soldiers :-)

[Musicdude]

All I'm asking is for a little equality with the coverage of people leaving the Democratic party.
Exactly. All Hillary supporters need to support All Hillary supporters in this effort. It has to be a joint effort to be successful. Focus has to be on why Hillary is the best candidate, and that Obama is a flawed candidate for many reasons. We will not vote for Obama. That's our message. Period. We stand united in that message. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

[ScottVA]

If you're looking for equality of coverage complain to the media .... I don't think it has anything to do with men not making it public that they're leaving the party just the same... I mean just go around to pro Hillary blogs and it's evident...

[12counts]

That's what I feared.

Your fears about this Obama backlash being perceived as being 1) perpetrated by just women and 2) in the name of sexism only are well founded.

The remedy to this is to throw the whole book at Obama and the DNC whenever we talk, think, or write about why we are united against Obama's candidacy. And I mean the WHOLE book.

It's not women vs. men, logical reasons vs. emotional reasons, sour grapes vs. legitimate complaints, sexism vs. racism. Naw, naw, naw, it's all of the above, and we need to make that clear every time this is brought up (ESPECIALLY with those of us with the opportunity to talk about in the media).

It's women and men...and Latinos, and the elderly, and many young Hillblazers, and whites, and blacks, and feminists and people who don't give a crap about feminism -- all who will not vote for Obama. And it's because of the gross sexism and misogyny...and because he race baited, trashed Hillary, trashed Bill, trashed Ferraro, is a national security threat, possibly holds un-American views, throws people under the bus, lied about Rezko, lied about his Pastor, can't win swing states, is unelectable, helps disenfranchise voters, is inexperienced, is unfit for office, benefitted from undemocratic caucuses, has thuggish barbarians for supporters, is way too far left, would be worse than McCain...and on and on.

We don't have to have any tradeoffs. Let's hit them with the full arsenal of Hillary's demographic support and the whole shebang when it comes to our complaints.

If we allow them to restrict our argument in any way, they can dismiss it. I don't intend to let them do that, and I am going to complain and complain and complain again until Hillary is President even if it takes till 2012. I don't care what the media or the DNC says. This is one 24-year-old straight African-American male chauvanist pig who is effing FED UP with Obama and the Democratic Party's bullcrap!

NOBAMA! Not now, not ever!

[ScottVA]

Your fears about this Obama backlash being perceived as being 1) perpetrated by just women and 2) in the name of sexism only are well founded.

The remedy to this is to throw the whole book at Obama and the DNC whenever we talk, think, or write about why we are united against Obama's candidacy. And I mean the WHOLE book.

It's not women vs. men, logical reasons vs. emotional reasons, sour grapes vs. legitimate complaints, sexism vs. racism. Naw, naw, naw, it's all of the above, and we need to make that clear every time this is brought up (ESPECIALLY with those of us with the opportunity to talk about in the media).

It's women and men...and Latinos, and the elderly, and many young Hillblazers, and whites, and blacks, and feminists and people who don't give a crap about feminism -- all who will not vote for Obama. And it's because of the gross sexism and misogyny...and because he race baited, trashed Hillary, trashed Bill, trashed Ferraro, is a national security threat, possible holds un-American views, throws people under the bus, lied about Rezko, lied about his Pastor, can't win swing states, is unelectable, help disenfranchise voters, is inexperienced, is unfit for office, benefitted from undemocratic caucuses, has thuggish barbarians for supporters, is way too far left, would be worse than McCain...and on and on.

We don't have to have any tradeoffs. Let's hit them with the full arsenal of Hillary's demographic support and the whole shebang when it comes to our complaints.

If we allow them to restrict our argument in any way, they can dismiss it. I don't intend to let them do that, and I am going to complain and complain and complain again until Hillary is President even if it takes till 2012. I don't care what the media or the DNC says. This is one 24-year-old straight African-American male chauvanist pig who is effing FED UP with Obama and the Democratic Party's bullcrap!

NOBAMA! Not now, not ever!

This is the attitude right here.... the go F*CK U one! At this point there's no other way to go.... the game is winding down so it's not the time to wuss up and worry about every detail....

[EngCindy]

NATIONAL SECURITY RISK


That is exactly how McCain is going to paint Obama and we should start NOW.

The superdelegates know what the Republicans are going to do and if they see us, collectively, saying the very same thing, they know we will choose McCain in November.
They will get the message, but we must keep up on the calling and the blogging against Obama. Eventually, someone is going to listen and I'm sure it will be before August !

[mcgowan.swan]

i understand what she is trying to say. i have been saying it for months. it is all about perception. hillary stands strong because she did not run her campaign as a "woman's" candidate. to do so would have pigeon holed her and not allowed her to be seen as strong and competent by the general electorate as a whole. if she gets too much notoriety as the candidate the women are pushing and holding up, it will hurt her credibility as a presidential candidate running on the issues and her competence, and make her the candidate running on the woman vote. it is strictly perception. the media and general public and everyone else needs to think of hillary in a completely asexual way in order for her to keep that presidential persona and get the votes of every segment of the people. she is perceived as strong and competent and not particularly girlish. that is a good thing in this instance. it is a marketing thing. we supporters need to be seen as a large, diverse group supporting our candidate and refusing to vote for obama in the general. if the perception becomes that only women are supporting hillary then it will be easy for the general public to dismiss her as the "women's" candidate that belongs at home with the kids and the kitchen, not out with the real boys running the country. i hope i have helped make it clear that the issue is not the reality of the major group of people we have here supporting hillary, but the public perception of how diverse her support group is. reality only matters if you can match it up with perception. :)

[abigailadams]

I think if women are angry about sexism we have to said it loud.
White people stood with blacks during the civil rights movement.
Men stood with women during women's liberation.

Being careful makes us temper our anger.

And perhaps that is why the sexism was allowed to go on so long and do tremendous damage. It's real. Say it.

Men have daughters they care about. They will stand with us.

[AlexG]

In my opinion, some women voted Hillary and some men voted Hillary. This is a good t hing. It is best to concentrate on the fact that they voted Hillary because she is the best candidate for President. Come on! If all of one gender voted for Hillary, then it seems to me that it takes away the fact that Hillary is smart, competent, and have good leadership which is why people voted for her.

Also, when we say things, keep in mind that nobody is a nominee yet. If Hillary is the nominee, we do not want to turn away people with comments.

[suerw]

Rigel I agree that would be the way to take that issue... to push it as not so much a vote against him because he's a womanizer... but because he sucks on the issues!

To be honest for me... while I think he sucks on both of my 2 earlier points.... My reason for not voting for him on any account... he's a MAJOR NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT to the US. That is the most important reason not to vote for him!

I completely agree with you, Scott.

[hillarymyhero]

I am sure all smart and serious minded persons regardless of their gender are for Hillary......

[suerw]

Right! We need to communicate through logic rather than emotion. We all know we have valid points (policy reasons) for never supporting Obama but those are the messages we need to relay to the media not the emotional ones. Even if the emotional reason are true we need to emphasize the logical ones because the emotional reasons play into negative stereotypes (no matter how true the emotional reasons may be).

Thank-you, Rigel. In issues regarding who should be a candidate for the Presidency of the United States, logic and reason should prevail. I will not vote for Senator Obama for very specific reasons. I posted this earlier, but it may have been lost in a less related thread. It is, I believe, more relevant here.

Hillary Clinton has the experience, proven record, and the character and values to be President. Without compromising her core convictions, she still finds ways to build coalitions and get things done. She examines facts and makes decisions that combine democratic values with practical solutions to issues at hand. She has knowledge and experience in the areas of foreign policy and national security. In short, she has the experience, knowledge, judgment and commitment to lead. Her record shows this.

In view of this, it is disturbing that the Democratic Party leadership appears bull-headedly committed to some obscure agenda that could result in nominating an inexperienced and untested candidate with a to date weak record of accomplishment in the US Senate and a background of associations that raises serious questions concerning his convictions and judgment.

I could not in good conscience vote for Senator Obama. At any time, and none more than the present, our country needs a leader with solid convictions and judgment, a person who can work with Congress and with heads of state throughout the world from a basis of strength. It should be obvious from the debates in this primary and from his thin record of accomplishments in the Senate that Senator Obama is not this person.

Senator Obama has shown himself very weak in the area of foreign policy both regarding trade and regarding our country's position toward the Middle East and toward North Korea and China. He has stated that he would hold talks with state sponsored terrorist regimes (Iran being a case in point) without any preconditions. That is conducting diplomacy from a position of weakness and it is dangerous to our national security. He has been vague in defining his plan for concluding the war in Iraq to the point of seeming not to actually have a plan. Withdrawing without a phased strategy would lead to destabilizing the entire region. He has not defined what he proposes our role in Afghanistan should be. He has no specific policy for revising NAFTA or our existing trade agreements with China, critical issues impacting jobs and our national deficit.

On domestic issues, Senator Obama has little to propose beyond his rhetoric of "hope." Without a real plan to confront the trade imbalance, there is no way to bring jobs back to our shores. Further, he has no comprehensive plan to create a program that would aggressively promote development of alternative energy, a program that could not only alleviate our dependence on foreign oil, but also create good jobs for Americans. Health care? His proposal would leave millions of hard working people uninsured. Education? If he has any real ideas on this subject, he's yet show us a specific plan.

There is an even more significant concern than the serious deficiencies Senator Obama has on the issues. Debate after debate, interview after interview, he has shown that he simply doesn't know what his core values and convictions are. And unfair though some of his apologists say it is, his long time associations with people such as the Rev. Wright and William Ayres and Tony Rezko raise legitimate doubts about Senator Obama's judgment and even his values. His contradictory statements over the past weeks regarding the Wright association have done nothing to put these doubts to rest. To what extent has he been influenced by the extreme views of Rev. Wright and, yes, by William Ayres? One wonders. The image of Senator Obama standing during the pledge of allegiance to our flag, arms at his side and turned slightly away from the flag comes vividly to mind. A conscious gesture? Or an unconscious reflection of how influenced he is by immersion in a philosophy, which holds radical views that denigrate on the core values of our nation? These questions have been called "distractions," irrelevant to the issues. But it is a national leader's core beliefs that underlie his or her decisions on critical matters, foreign and domestic, affecting all Americans.

Bottom line, I trust Hillary Clinton. I regret to say that I cannot trust Barack Obama.

[momoffiveforhillary]

I think if women are angry about sexism we have to said it loud.
White people stood with blacks during the civil rights movement.
Men stood with women during women's liberation.

Being careful makes us temper our anger.

And perhaps that is why the sexism was allowed to go on so long and do tremendous damage. It's real. Say it.

Men have daughters they care about. They will stand with us.

Very good point!!!

[abigailadams]

Women worry too much about what others think.

Even Hillary said that women have a tougher time being heard - because we don't stand up as much.

Stand up Tall to injustice. Men will follow and they will add their own opinions on what they see.
but don't fold becasue you are afraid of alienating.

Our girls need tough advocates. And our boys do too - they need to see women standing up for justice.