Breaking News on Florida (3/17/08)

[Jayling]

FoxNews just announced that there is Breaking News coming over the wires about Florida.

They'll have the information after this commercial.

Tune in NOW!

[lanney]

Primary again

[neutralplayer]

FNC: Florida Dems won't hold another primary.

[G4Hillary]

They have to count the votes now!!!!!!!!!

Yes!

If they don't, bye bye Presidency for Dems.

[Imwithhillary]

FNC: Florida Dems won't hold another primary.

What does that mean will happen??

[G4Hillary]

Only Hillary can seat them. Yes! hehe

[Jayling]

ayeyup, it seems official now -- the Florida Dems won't hold a 2nd Presidential Primary.

[emmyCA]

Florida has to seat their delegate. Re voting in FL will cost millions of dollars, that is waste of money but they know the result will come out the same based on all internet polls.

[neutralplayer]

It means the only option for the Dems is to count the results from Jan. 29th or not at all.

[Peppermint Patty]

They have to count the votes now!!!!!!!!!

Yes!

If they don't, bye bye Presidency for Dems.

They had better count Florida's votes and give them to Hillary. BO says he didn't campaign in FL. Well, NONE OF THEM DID!! But HRC won anyway so she should get those delegates!!!

[emmyCA]

ayeyup, it seems official now -- the Florida Dems won't hold a 2nd Presidential Primary.


Jaying, thanks for reporting! I am at work now and not able to watch TV...Please keep reporting any breaking news to the forum in the business hour as many won't be able to catch TV. Thanks much!

[Ohio mom]

Florida has to seat their delegate. Re voting in FL will cost millions of dollars, that is waste of money but they know the result will come out the same based on all internet polls.

THEY CAME TO A CONCLUSION TO SEAT THE DELEGATES?????:confused::eek:

[emmyCA]

They had better count Florida's votes and give them to Hillary. BO says he didn't campaign in FL. Well, NONE OF THEM DID!! But HRC won anyway so she should get those delegates!!!

In fact, Obama did run ads in Floriday for 3 weeks, all news stated that but I don't know why they didn't make it a big deal on his lie and his violiation to the DNC rule

[lucky-ann]

i'm affraid this is really bad for hillary, because i can hardly imagine the DNC will simply count the Florida votes:( What do you think?

[Amy Dugan]

NO REDO
Caucus or Primary

Florida has SUCH A BIG HILLARY BASE
LARGE NUMBER OF DELEGATES
LARGE POPULAR VOTE

That state was her last hope to get more popular votes than Obama. THEN the superdelegates could make the final decision to nominate Hillary and it would still be fair.

[emmyCA]

i'm affraid this is really bad for hillary, because i can hardly imagine the DNC will simply count the Florida votes:( What do you think?

DNC will get to court if they don't seat delegates. Dean will be fired if it was his decison.

[tcbwriter]

Doesn't this mean the DNC Credentials Committee makes the decision?

[lucky-ann]

DNC will get to court if they don't seat delegates. Dean will be fired if it was his decison.

really? i sure hope the delegates will be seated, but i'm a bit pessimistic right now...

[G4Hillary]

Republicans will massacre the Democrats in Florida if they don't seat the delegates as is.

If they Democrats get stupid they will lose, no doubt.

[neutralplayer]

I honestly think at the end of the day the party elders will have the bawk to FL's demands if the Dems stand a chance of winning the presidency.

[lucky-ann]

Republicans will massacre the Democrats in Florida if they don't seat the delegates as is.

If they Democrats get stupid they will lose, no doubt.

i agree, but the question is: is Dean clever enough to get that? i doubt it...

[Amy Dugan]

yes they do and i think the nominee has the say on what that committee can do. AND it was ASSUMED that the nominee on Feb 5 would simply re-instate FL and MI

Why on earth did Dean punish FL dems for a Republican-enforced election day push up?

[no_more_bush]

This is horrible news! Hillary NEEDS the popular vote advantage that Florida brings. The DNC leaders are all Obama supporters and will not seat the Florida Delegates as is, they will most likely split them equally or not seat them at all.

This ruling is in Obama's favor, he never wanted Florida to be included in the race because Hillary is likely to win there.

[neutralplayer]

While I personally would have been happy with a re-do, I don't think this could be considered bad news for Hillary.

It's actually bad news for the party bosses because now they are going to have the make a decision.

[pearson]

Wasn't the Florida decision today on the "combination mail-in and in-person primary?" I'm wondering if Florida is still willing to consider an in-person primary only option? I think the concern was with the mail-in part.

[lucky-ann]

Wasn't the Florida decision today on the "combination mail-in and in-person primary?" I'm wondering if Florida is still willing to consider an in-person primary only option? I think the concern was with the mail-in part.

that would be great!

[Amy Dugan]

Karen Thurman said NO NO NO REDO
It is up to the DNC and the candidates to solve this mess

Dear Amy,

For a year now, the Florida Democratic Party has tried to comply with the Delegate Selection Rules of the Democratic National Committee.

We researched every potential alternative process - from caucuses to county conventions to mail-in elections - but no plan could come anywhere close to being viable in Florida.

We made a detailed case to the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, but we were denied.

Our Democratic legislators in Tallahassee tried to set the Florida primary on Feb. 5, instead of Jan. 29, but of course, their proposed amendment to House Bill 537 was greeted with laughter and derision from the Republicans who control the state government.

Does '537' ring a bell? It should. It's the number of votes that separated Texas Gov. George W. Bush and Vice President Al Gore in Florida in 2000.

It's the number that sent this country and this world in a terrible direction.

We can't let 537 - or the Republicans - determine our future again.

President Bush plans to stop in Florida tomorrow to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for the Republican National Committee's efforts to elect his successor in November.

The last thing America needs is a third Bush term. Despite the widespread anxiety that working families feel, not to mention the broad agreement among economists that we are in a recession, President Bush and John McCain blindly believe that the economy is strong.

And let me remind you that John McCain endorsed President Bush's decision to deny health care to thousands of Florida children by vetoing an expansion of the successful SCHIP program. McCain also promises to jeopardize the financial security of Florida seniors by privatizing Social Security. He continually threatens to push Florida's military families to the brink by keeping American troops in Iraq for "100 years" or more.

This is why we are Democrats, and this is why we must stick together, no matter where this ongoing delegate debate takes us.

Last week, the Florida Democratic Party laid out the only existing way that we can comply with DNC Rules - a statewide revote run by the Party - and asked for input.

Thousands of people responded. We spent the weekend reviewing your messages, and while your reasons vary widely, the consensus is clear: Florida doesn't want to vote again.

So we won't.

A party-run primary or caucus has been ruled out, and it's simply not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the Party were to pay for it. Republican Speaker of the Florida House Marco Rubio refuses to even consider that option. Florida is finally moving to paper ballots, which is a good thing, but it means that at least 15 counties do not have the capacity to handle a major election before the June 10th DNC primary deadline.

This doesn't mean that Democrats are giving up on Florida voters. It means that a solution will have to come from the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, which is scheduled to meet again in April.

When this committee stripped us of 100% of our delegates last year, some members summed up their reasoning by saying, "The rules are the rules." Unfortunately, the rules did not apply to Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina when they, too, violated the DNC calendar by moving from their assigned dates.

As the late great Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt once said, "We must adjust our ideas to the facts of today... Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are."

The Florida Democratic Party has stuck to its principles throughout this debate. We've remained open-minded while never wavering from our commitment to an open and fair election that would allow all Florida Democrats to participate, whether serving in Iraq, retiring in Boca, studying abroad or entertaining at a theme park.

Another late great President -Abraham Lincoln, a Republican - said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

If Democrats heed this wisdom, we will win in November.

America needs a great president again, but a President McCain will settle for the status quo and carry on the disastrous Bush tradition.

President Clinton or President Obama will make history and lead this nation in a new direction.

Let's remember this as the delegate debate continues. We must stick together as Democrats. The stakes are too high and the opportunities too great.

I will keep you posted on any major developments. Thank you for your concern and your commitment.

Sincerely,

Congresswoman Karen L. Thurman
Chair, Florida Democratic Party


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[G4Hillary]

They can argue the about delegates but there was no restriction about popular vote.

VOTES MUST COUNT!!!

[no_more_bush]

The announcement was for no re-vote, this would include: a primary,caucus, or mail-in.

[Ohio mom]

The announcement was for no re-vote, this would include: a primary,caucus, or mail-in.

SO NOW WHAT????

[Amy Dugan]

Dear Amy,

For a year now, the Florida Democratic Party has tried to comply with the Delegate Selection Rules of the Democratic National Committee.

We researched every potential alternative process - from caucuses to county conventions to mail-in elections - but no plan could come anywhere close to being viable in Florida.

We made a detailed case to the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, but we were denied.

Our Democratic legislators in Tallahassee tried to set the Florida primary on Feb. 5, instead of Jan. 29, but of course, their proposed amendment to House Bill 537 was greeted with laughter and derision from the Republicans who control the state government.

Does '537' ring a bell? It should. It's the number of votes that separated Texas Gov. George W. Bush and Vice President Al Gore in Florida in 2000.

It's the number that sent this country and this world in a terrible direction.

We can't let 537 - or the Republicans - determine our future again.

President Bush plans to stop in Florida tomorrow to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for the Republican National Committee's efforts to elect his successor in November.

The last thing America needs is a third Bush term. Despite the widespread anxiety that working families feel, not to mention the broad agreement among economists that we are in a recession, President Bush and John McCain blindly believe that the economy is strong.

And let me remind you that John McCain endorsed President Bush's decision to deny health care to thousands of Florida children by vetoing an expansion of the successful SCHIP program. McCain also promises to jeopardize the financial security of Florida seniors by privatizing Social Security. He continually threatens to push Florida's military families to the brink by keeping American troops in Iraq for "100 years" or more.

This is why we are Democrats, and this is why we must stick together, no matter where this ongoing delegate debate takes us.

Last week, the Florida Democratic Party laid out the only existing way that we can comply with DNC Rules - a statewide revote run by the Party - and asked for input.

Thousands of people responded. We spent the weekend reviewing your messages, and while your reasons vary widely, the consensus is clear: Florida doesn't want to vote again.

So we won't.

A party-run primary or caucus has been ruled out, and it's simply not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the Party were to pay for it. Republican Speaker of the Florida House Marco Rubio refuses to even consider that option. Florida is finally moving to paper ballots, which is a good thing, but it means that at least 15 counties do not have the capacity to handle a major election before the June 10th DNC primary deadline.

This doesn't mean that Democrats are giving up on Florida voters. It means that a solution will have to come from the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, which is scheduled to meet again in April.

When this committee stripped us of 100% of our delegates last year, some members summed up their reasoning by saying, "The rules are the rules." Unfortunately, the rules did not apply to Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina when they, too, violated the DNC calendar by moving from their assigned dates.

As the late great Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt once said, "We must adjust our ideas to the facts of today... Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are."

The Florida Democratic Party has stuck to its principles throughout this debate. We've remained open-minded while never wavering from our commitment to an open and fair election that would allow all Florida Democrats to participate, whether serving in Iraq, retiring in Boca, studying abroad or entertaining at a theme park.

Another late great President -Abraham Lincoln, a Republican - said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

If Democrats heed this wisdom, we will win in November.

America needs a great president again, but a President McCain will settle for the status quo and carry on the disastrous Bush tradition.

President Clinton or President Obama will make history and lead this nation in a new direction.

Let's remember this as the delegate debate continues. We must stick together as Democrats. The stakes are too high and the opportunities too great.

I will keep you posted on any major developments. Thank you for your concern and your commitment.

Sincerely,

Congresswoman Karen L. Thurman
Chair, Florida Democratic Party


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jayling]

SO NOW WHAT????

From the official memo that Amy posted:

"It means that a solution will have to come from the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, which is scheduled to meet again in April."

What a bloody mess this is.

[ALL4HILLARY]

They Are Thinking Of Accepting 50% Or As Obama Said 25% Of The Delegates. Every Vote Counts. Not Even 99.9999999999999999% Is Unacceptable

[Ohio mom]

From the official memo that Amy posted:

"It means that a solution will have to come from the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, which is scheduled to meet again in April."

What a bloody mess this is.

SO JUST A LENGTHY WAY TO SAY THEY HAVEN'T MADE A DECISION YET???:rolleyes:

[lucky-ann]

if florida doesn't count, it would be virtually over for hillary, or would she still have a chance in this case??

[G4Hillary]

IF FLORIDA DOESN'T COUNT IT IS OVER FOR THE DEMOCRATS PERIOD!

THEY LOSE! I have lived in Florida and if they are given the shaft they will give the Dems the shaft. They have no reservations about voting Republican.

[lucky-ann]

i strongly agree with you, but isn't it highly unlikely that the DNC will seat the delegates...they should know what that means for the GE, but unfortunately they happen to be a bunch of complete idiots, who are in love with obama...

[neutralplayer]

I personally think winning the GE is far more important to them than Obama lol

[lucky-ann]

okay you're giving me some hope:p I agree that the most important thing for them is the GE, but i'm concerned that they won't get it, that they are completely gonna lose it, if they don't seet the delegates...

[mooaks]

IF FLORIDA DOESN'T COUNT IT IS OVER FOR THE DEMOCRATS PERIOD!

THEY LOSE! I have lived in Florida and if they are given the shaft they will give the Dems the shaft. They have no reservations about voting Republican.

Cafferty, Rafferty , or whatever his name is on CNN, said about the Florida vote redo:
I don't believe they should be banned from the United States, but they should never be allowed to vote again, because they don't do it right anyway!

He's a dirty SOB in my book:mad:

[tcbwriter]

Perhaps we need to start a petition, write to the DNC, blog, contact the media, etc. and point out that South Carolina, Iowa & New Hampshire also broke the rules.

If they remove those those delegates, what will that do to Obama's lead???

:confused::confused::confused:

[Smart cookie]

The only press coverage I can find says that there will be no option of a mail-in primary. I have yet to find a flat out refusal for any re-vote. Hillary cannot allow a caucus!

[G4Hillary]

Cafferty, Rafferty , or whatever his name is on CNN, said about the Florida vote redo:
I don't believe they should be banned from the United States, but they should never be allowed to vote again, because they don't do it right anyway!

He's a dirty SOB in my book:mad:

Cafferty is always unhappy and disgusted unless he's talking about Obama. Cafferty is what is wrong with media.

[AdrienneJ]

Well, I feel a little sick. I'd like to know who stopped the 2nd primary from taking place. There was some talk that it would be Obama supporters in the Florida house. Yes, there is the DNC rules and bylaws committee that will meet (I think) 90 days before the convention to settle the question of whether Florida delegates will be seated. But the committee is of course now filled with people split in loyalty over Obama and our gal Hillary. There has also been at least one law suit filed by a Flordia democrat voter who says he has been illegally disenfranchised. There might be other lawsuits.

Usually the courts have let political parties have control over their contests. If I were the attorney I would argue that states should have control over their own contests. Seeing as there are rabid Repubs on the Supreme Court who have historically leaned towards states rights, there might be a chance there. There is also a possible suit for the disenfranchisement of minority voters. And cases involving discrimination against minorities are put under the highest standard of Constitutional review. I believe it was Andrew Young leader of the NAACP who had started a protest on this point. If it is a lawsuit at this point in time, I do not know. However, I can see how it might easily become one. This lawsuit would favor seating the delegates as they were determined by the primary Florida has already held.

We all know that if Florida voters feel disenfranchised by this ludicrous nightmare they are being put through (and the rest of the country with them, as usual) they will most likely not vote in the general election if Hillary is not the nominee (if they voted for her- which the majority of them did). The democrats will lose Florida. Lose Florida and lose the entire general election.

I'm afraid that Dean and the other intellectual giants of our party's leadership need to go sit in the corner for a 'time out' until they realize they've been bad and can now behave appropriately.

The democratic intelligentsia (yeah, I'm being sarcastic) would do well to remember what the Congresswoman from Florida has just written: "Abraham Lincoln said 'a house divided will not stand.'" Of course that is true, and rightly quoted. Shouldn't it wake the DNC up that it is completely fitting to use quotes that originated from the time of the beginning of the American Civil War?

On a brighter side, there should be overwhelming arguments to seat Florida as it has already been delegated. If the press would only be fair for once, the nation's people would agree that it is only right to seat the Florida delegates. Of course we've made all the gain we have in this election process in opposition to the media hype. So I suppose we'll just have to do it again.

[johnny51981]

Can they not just re-certify the votes that had been cast already and consider it an early voting? Since all parties had ads run for their camps?

[joeysky18]

What a bloody mess this is.

Life as a democrat is really hard.

[Charlie Brown]

Cafferty, Rafferty , or whatever his name is on CNN, said about the Florida vote redo:
I don't believe they should be banned from the United States, but they should never be allowed to vote again, because they don't do it right anyway!

He's a dirty SOB in my book:mad:

I Hate HIMMMMMM

[SD]

here are parts of an email i received from Congresswoman Karen L. Thurman
Chair, Florida Democratic Party


For a year now, the Florida Democratic Party has tried to comply with the Delegate Selection Rules of the Democratic National Committee.

We researched every potential alternative process - from caucuses to county conventions to mail-in elections - but no plan could come anywhere close to being viable in Florida.

We made a detailed case to the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, but we were denied.

Our Democratic legislators in Tallahassee tried to set the Florida primary on Feb. 5, instead of Jan. 29, but of course, their proposed amendment to House Bill 537 was greeted with laughter and derision from the Republicans who control the state government.

Does '537' ring a bell? It should. It's the number of votes that separated Texas Gov. George W. Bush and Vice President Al Gore in Florida in 2000.

The last thing America needs is a third Bush term. Despite the widespread anxiety that working families feel, not to mention the broad agreement among economists that we are in a recession, President Bush and John McCain blindly believe that the economy is strong.

And let me remind you that John McCain endorsed President Bush's decision to deny health care to thousands of Florida children by vetoing an expansion of the successful SCHIP program. McCain also promises to jeopardize the financial security of Florida seniors by privatizing Social Security. He continually threatens to push Florida's military families to the brink by keeping American troops in Iraq for "100 years" or more.

This is why we are Democrats, and this is why we must stick together, no matter where this ongoing delegate debate takes us.

Last week, the Florida Democratic Party laid out the only existing way that we can comply with DNC Rules - a statewide revote run by the Party - and asked for input.

Thousands of people responded. We spent the weekend reviewing your messages, and while your reasons vary widely, the consensus is clear: Florida doesn't want to vote again.

So we won't.


Another late great President -Abraham Lincoln, a Republican - said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

If Democrats heed this wisdom, we will win in November.

America needs a great president again, but a President McCain will settle for the status quo and carry on the disastrous Bush tradition.

President Clinton or President Obama will make history and lead this nation in a new direction.


they are caving. and they are blaming the republicans. and they want us to cave. absolutely not. the dnc stripped our votes. and i will not support them now. if obama gets this nomination, unfairly, i will do everything in my power to help john mccain win. the democrats did this and i am damned if i will go quietly into that good night by supporting a party who has rammed obama down my throat by denying florida our voices.

[mooaks]

Well, I feel a little sick. I'd like to know who stopped the 2nd primary from taking place. There was some talk that it would be Obama supporters in the Florida house. Yes, there is the DNC rules and bylaws committee that will meet (I think) 90 days before the convention to settle the question of whether Florida delegates will be seated. But the committee is of course now filled with people split in loyalty over Obama and our gal Hillary. There has also been at least one law suit filed by a Flordia democrat voter who says he has been illegally disenfranchised. There might be other lawsuits.

Usually the courts have let political parties have control over their contests. If I were the attorney I would argue that states should have control over their own contests. Seeing as there are rabid Repubs on the Supreme Court who have historically leaned towards states rights, there might be a chance there. There is also a possible suit for the disenfranchisement of minority voters. And cases involving discrimination against minorities are put under the highest standard of Constitutional review. I believe it was Andrew Young leader of the NAACP who had started a protest on this point. If it is a lawsuit at this point in time, I do not know. However, I can see how it might easily become one. This lawsuit would favor seating the delegates as they were determined by the primary Florida has already held.

We all know that if Florida voters feel disenfranchised by this ludicrous nightmare they are being put through (and the rest of the country with them, as usual) they will most likely not vote in the general election if Hillary is not the nominee (if they voted for her- which the majority of them did). The democrats will lose Florida. Lose Florida and lose the entire general election.

I'm afraid that Dean and the other intellectual giants of our party's leadership need to go sit in the corner for a 'time out' until they realize they've been bad and can now behave appropriately.

The democratic intelligentsia (yeah, I'm being sarcastic) would do well to remember what the Congresswoman from Florida has just written: "Abraham Lincoln said 'a house divided will not stand.'" Of course that is true, and rightly quoted. Shouldn't it wake the DNC up that it is completely fitting to use quotes that originated from the time of the beginning of the American Civil War?

On a brighter side, there should be overwhelming arguments to seat Florida as it has already been delegated. If the press would only be fair for once, the nation's people would agree that it is only right to seat the Florida delegates. Of course we've made all the gain we have in this election process in opposition to the media hype. So I suppose we'll just have to do it again.

What Dean should do under these trying circumstances or the rules committee should just go ahead and count the votes as they are in Florida. The reason being is that he knows that the Florida voters went to the voting booths and cast their ballots not knowing that they were going to be disenfranchised. And the Mickey Mouse penalty isn't going to do anything but lessen the value of the Democratic party for all future elections. The democratic party will forever be a voice crying in the wilderness with no one to hear them, if they do not count these votes as is. Obama has the opportunity to be a real uniter and not a divider over this. In fact, it will really take the heat off of him over the Wright situation if he says that as far as he's concerned for the good of the party they should be counted as is. He might lose, but he will always be remembered as the one who saved Florida and perhaps, and I say perhaps, saved the Democratic party.

[xyndau]

I got an email today from Howard Dean asking for Money. lol Here is my response and his email.
--------------------------

Mr. Dean: I'll contribute when you seat the Florida and Michigan delegates and until then any donation I make will go directly to Hillary Clinton.
Regards,
xxxxxxxx

Howard Dean <democraticparty@democrats.org> wrote:

The Democratic Party


Dear xxxxxxxx,
Help lay the groundwork for our nomineeA year ago, no one would have guessed our party's primary season would still be going this strong. But that's not the only surprise of this election season.
Democrats are voting in larger numbers than anyone expected, and this record turnout shows incredible promise for the general election ahead of us.
But we also have a problem. John McCain has already sewn up the Republican nomination, and he's free to raise money and campaign all across the country.
The past few days, he's taken his campaign on a world tour at taxpayer expense. This weekend, he made a "surprise" stop in Iraq, trying to re-frame five years of steadfast support for George Bush's war with photo ops and press releases.
We can't afford to wait for Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama to win the Democratic nomination -- they're focused on winning the nomination while John McCain is focused on winning the White House. We are the only organization that can look beyond the primaries and lay the groundwork for Hillary or Barack to inherit if they win. They can't run against John McCain yet, but we can do it for them.
I need you to make a donation now so that we can continue our campaign against John McCain. Hillary or Barack will need the infrastructure in place as soon as they're nominated:
http://www.democrats.org/LookingAhead
Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are generating the sort of passion this country hasn't seen in a long time. Both of them are bringing new Democrats into the process -- and reactivating old ones who haven't voted in years.
In Texas, 2.8 million Democratic ballots were cast in our Party's primary. That's more votes than Al Gore or John Kerry received in Texas in the past two general elections.
Now states like Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Oregon, and Kentucky will have their chance to impact the presidential nomination process. That's more states that Barack or Hillary may never have visited if not for the enthusiasm everyone has for them. It's also more states where voters will show up in record numbers for the primary and general elections.
The energy we're seeing across the country is what the 50-State Strategy is all about: giving Democrats a party that can compete in areas we've continually ignored in past elections. It's not easy, and it's not cheap, but it's the best way for our party to win.
But every day that the Democratic primary continues, John McCain is hitting the campaign trail, misleading the American people about his record, contradicting himself on the issues, and attacking Hillary and Barack.
I need you to contribute right now so Hillary or Barack can make it to the White House in November:
http://www.democrats.org/LookingAhead
It's clear that there are benefits to a healthy, contested primary. But right now, John McCain thinks he can get a free pass while our campaigns are focused on each other.
You and I aren't going to let John McCain get ahead -- and we're going to do that by making sure Americans hear the truth about him.
From the war in Iraq and tax cuts for corporate special interests, McCain has put forth an astonishingly simple agenda: continue the Bush Administration's failed policies for another four years.
It's not just the Iraq War and tax breaks for the wealthy where John McCain falls in line with President Bush. Even on the unconventional issues that gave John McCain his "maverick" reputation, he has traded his integrity for a chance at the presidency.
This may not be news to you, but too many Americans don't know the facts about the Republican candidate for president, and Hillary or Barack can't get started just yet. Make a donation today and support our efforts to take him head-on and lay the groundwork for them:
http://www.democrats.org/LookingAhead
Thank you,
Howard Dean

[SD]

xyndau, i get the same emails and i send the same responses you do. i don't think anyone is reading them. :rolleyes:

to now have them come out with that "house divided" bit is just too much for me. they divided it by denying my vote. i didn't vote for obama and i refuse to let them force him on me. if it comes down to him, mccain has my vote and my money.

[Teri B.]

Florida Democrats Won't Hold Re-Do Primary (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/17/politics/main3946268.shtml)

TALLAHASSEE, Fla., March 17, 2008
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CBS/AP) Florida Democrats won't go forward with a plan to redo the presidential primary with a mostly mail-in vote, the state party chairwoman said Monday in a letter citing lack of support for the idea.

A solution to the problem is now in the hands of the Democratic National Committee, which stripped the state of its delegates because Florida held an early primary, Chairwoman Karen Thurman said.

"The consensus is clear: Florida doesn't want to vote again. So we won't," Thurman wrote. "A party-run primary or caucus has been ruled out, and it's simply not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the Party were to pay for it."

The dispute between the state and national parties has become even more critical because Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton are locked in a tight battle for the nomination. More than 1.7 million people voted in a Jan. 29 primary, which Clinton won handily, but the DNC said that vote didn't count since party rules didn't allow a primary before Feb. 5. Neither candidate campaigned in the state in the months leading up to the election.

"The decision not to re-vote keeps the state's Democratic delegates in limbo," said CBSNews.com senior political editor Vaughn Ververs. "It is hard to see them being seated solely based on the results of the January vote anytime before the convention and just as difficult to think they would be divided equally between the two candidates. This would appear to be a blow to the Clinton campaign which needs to find a way to make up deficits in both the pledged delegate count and the popular vote."

Thurman now hopes the DNC rules committee will reconsider last year's decision to strip the state of its delegates.

"We researched every potential alternative process - from caucuses to county conventions to mail-in elections - but no plan could come anywhere close to being viable in Florida," Thurman wrote.

The party's last resort was a proposed party-run vote-by-mail and in-person primary, but many Democrats saw too many potential problems, from leaving out seniors who move north for the summer to finding a way of verifying ballot signatures.

"Jay Leno had it right: when you combine the confidence level of the Florida Democratic Party and the United States Postal Service, you might have an issue," said Jon Ausman, a Florida DNC member, who opposed the vote-by-mail plan. "I don't care what experts you hire, if you have no experience doing it, you're very likely not going to make it."

All nine of Florida's Democratic U.S. House members opposed the idea, though Sen. Bill Nelson supported it.

"It was clear that a mail-in was not going to work. It was too risky. You don't want to start experimenting with a new voting method when the stakes are as high as a presidential election," said Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz. "There were a variety of major problems with it."

Wasserman Schultz said that the congressional delegation is talking with the DNC and both campaigns to find another solution to seating Florida's delegates, including an idea that would take into account the January vote among other factors.

"Now we have to turn our focus to a solution that will make sure the Democratic nominee is selected by voters from all 50 states," she said.



©MMVIII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed

Splitting the delegates equally between them is exactly the same as not counting them at all. This is bull! Since when do democrats disenfranchise people on this kind of massive scale. It makes me SICK! :mad:

[tcbwriter]

Perhaps we need to start a petition, write to the DNC, blog, contact the media, etc. and point out that South Carolina, Iowa & New Hampshire also broke the rules.

If they remove those those delegates, what will that do to Obama's lead???

:confused::confused::confused:
I guess nobody like this idea . . .

Maybe I'll suggest it to Karen Thurmon. I'm a little surprised nobody has thought of this . . .

[kari in nebraska]

How can the DNC even consider splitting Florida's votes 50/50? Does anyone else get the impression that the DNC is running scared because of the scandel regarding BO's church, and now their "poster child" could potentially lose? I really think the DNC is pulling for BO and seating Florida's delegates 50/50 would give him the advantage. That cannot happen. I have a lot of friends in Florida who voted for Hillary in the primary. Can the DNC think they can just "wipe out" those votes? How many years are the Florida Democrats gonna be "screwed" out of their votes and continue supporting the DNC?

HILLARY WON FLORIDA!!!

[lucky-ann]

"It is hard to see them being seated solely based on the results of the January vote anytime before the convention and just as difficult to think they would be divided equally between the two candidates. This would appear to be a blow to the Clinton campaign which needs to find a way to make up deficits in both the pledged delegate count and the popular vote."

I agree with that...if they just seat the delegates it would be fair in my view, but obama supporters would feel treated unfairly and if they don't seat them at all it's the other way around...this is truely a mess, because if hillary or obama supporters think they candidate lost the nomination unfairly it will be really hard to convince them to vote democratic nevertheless...

[eeslaomd]

While I personally would have been happy with a re-do, I don't think this could be considered bad news for Hillary.

It's actually bad news for the party bosses because now they are going to have the make a decision.

yes. and they have to count the florida vote as it is! florida delegates should be seated otherwise they'll have a revolt on their hands. florida voters cannot be disenfranchised again!

[Teri B.]

I agree with that...if they just seat the delegates it would be fair in my view, but obama supporters would feel treated unfairly and if they don't seat them at all it's the other way around...this is truely a mess, because if hillary or obama supporters think they candidate lost the nomination unfairly it will be really hard to convince them to vote democratic nevertheless...

Seating the delegates like that is the same as not counting the votes at all. How is it fair to anyone to disregard the votes of an entire state? Howard Dean screwed the entire party royally. I'm about to become an independent. I'm so SICK of this. First Florida in 2000, then Ohio in 2004. Why do we even bother to vote at all? If the candidate who actually gets the most VOTES doesn't win, what's the point?:mad:

[AdrienneJ]

Hey TCB,
I like the idea. I need to check on how Iowa, South Carolina and New Hampshire broke the rules. I've heard it before about New Hampshire. I know that the Flordia Congresswoman stated that about Iowa, SC and NH. If you find verification, I'll certainly take your word for it. And I'll certainly sign any petition on the subject.

[Amy Dugan]

I know SC did too because the media were saying in Jan that Congressman Clyburn had to stay neutral as part of the agreement when SC moved their primary up

[johnny51981]

Ya'll, my eyes are welling up here. We need a big swing and QUICK...I'm going to end up going bald by the end of the primary season.

[Amy Dugan]

the fact that Hillary COULD have more of the popular vote than Obama by June IF Florida had a revote, will make Obama THE NEXT PRESIDENT BUSH (elected illegitimately) if he is selected by superdelegates without Florida voter input



talk about angry women

[Teri B.]

the fact that Hillary COULD have more of the popular vote than Obama by June IF Florida had a revote, will make Obama THE NEXT PRESIDENT BUSH (elected illegitimately) if he is selected by superdelegates without Florida voter input



talk about angry women

No, it will make McCain the next President Bush, because Florida will not vote democratic in the general if they are disenfranchised, and McCain will have a field day with the fact that the democratic party disenfranchised 1.7 million voters. Dean has sealed our nations fate with his STUPIDITY AND STUBBORNNESS. Thanks Howard!:mad:

Y'all should be listening to Lou Dobbs right now. They are freaking ripping up the party for this.

[diane]

"South Carolina, Iowa & New Hampshire also broke the rules."

So if these other three States also violated the primary date, then why is it only Florida and Michigan being penalized?

The only problem I can see for Hillary is that she promised, in Michigan, to take her name off the ballot, but then decided not to. But Hillary took this pledge along with the other candiates to remove her name, and that is why BO's name was removed from the ballot. Apparently another candidate's name also remained on the ballot because he didn't get his paperwork in on time or something like that. However, BO did violate the FL "rules" by campaigning when none of the candidates were supposed to that. BO ran ads for 3 weeks or so before the FL primary.

So they both violated the rules to some extent. Perhaps they can let FL stand and redo Michigan. Although it sucks because the States that broke the rules and get away with it, conveniently are the ones that went to BO, while the two that went to Hillary aren't being counted.

[Amy Dugan]

On June 3, MI will MOST likely have a full primary so that issue of Hillary breaking a pledge is moot. In FL, on the other hand, Obama ran some ads on cable there. This was the topic of a thread last week and we all decided to call and email the DNC that FL was campaigned by Obama. Bill Clinton mentioned this in his interview today on CNN that, "in Florida, with the exception of some cable TV ads ran by Obama, none of the candidates campaigned there"

Good one Mr. President. You know you have been out of the lime-light and these interviews you are doing will be highly watched and so those who did not know about the Obama ads in Fl will now.

[MarkMiller]

Splitting the delegates equally between them is exactly the same as not counting them at all. This is bull! Since when do democrats disenfranchise people on this kind of massive scale. It makes me SICK! :mad:

Look at it this way. The playing field in Florida was even for both candidates. Both were on the ballot and both kept from campaigning there. So a re vote there may not really be needed. Cafferty is saying that Florida did this to themselves but admits it was a Republican Governor that signed the change in the primary knowing it was against the Democratic Party .....so the whole thing smells pretty rotten to me, but......

[lakerchick4life]

I will tell you all this, if the Democratic party does NOT count Florida I will be switching to Republican. Absolutely DISGUSTING that they are making Obama look like Jesus and REFUSE to show him for what he is. They have to let Florida count because if they don't Democrats will run in the other direction. They are making themselves look really stupid

[Disfranchised]

If you look at the Obama's campaign prediction and all the different sceneries, they never allowed for Florida to be represented. He knows he would lose Florida if they count our votes and seat our delegates or do a new primary! And why is that? Because he wants to win and we do not matter to him. His campaign did everything they possibly could to stop the voice of 1.7 million voters to be heard. He is not a uniter but a divider. He took my civil liberties away from me without even being the president and that is the example of what this man intend to do to our country and people. He is worse than the present administration. At least they allow me the freedom of speech. :mad:

[swannyj]

This was on the HRC site
"COUNT OUR VOTES" RALLY, WITH CONGRESSMAN DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, "TOMORROW", MARCH 18 TH, 11:30 A.M., RIVERSIDE HOTEL, 620 E. LAS OLAS BLVD., FORT LAUDERDALE, FL. 33301. "BRING" SIGNS "COUNT OUR VOTES".

[JMS825]

Dont be shy write him and tell him what you think.

You have disappointed me as a leader of the DNC. Have you not learned from 2000 that FL means a lot to winning the White House. You allow the Republicans to control the faith of the DNC. Who are you working for? I understand your in Obama's pocket but to sell out your own party is disgusting. I have you know by you allowing the Republicans to win FL without a battle you have lost myself as well as many other democratic voters. I rather vote for McCain than support a crooked politician like Obama. Perhaps this is why you were not elected in 04.

[neutralplayer]

I think Florida Dems have ruled out a caucus.

[JMS825]

I think Florida Dems have ruled out a caucus.

They announced today their will be no re-vote of any kind

[Teri B.]

Part of the problem with a revote in Florida is that the polls show a revote would be pretty much the same as the original vote. There's two reasons why they don't want to do a revote: 1) because the original results would be the same as the revote - why waste the money and time; and 2) because the original results would be the same as the revote - why not just disallow it instead of allowing the voters to vote for Clinton when too many Dems in the Florida legislature favor Obama.

The Republicans in the Florida legislature, who can benefit in the general election from the DNC's stupidity in disenfranchising Florida voters, and the Obama supporters in the Florida legislature, who don't want these votes to tilt the election toward Clinton, outnumber those who want the votes to count.

[floorrunner]

That's the same e-mail I got. I wrote back to them. This is what I said.

"I respectfully ask that you stop asking me for contributions unless you honor the votes of the voters of Florida and Michigan and seat the delgates."

I'll probably get another contribution request, just like the ones Ig ot in response to my last 7 e-mails to them. It would be nice to at least get some acknowledgement about what i wrote to them in the first place for before asking for money.

[floorrunner]

Perhaps we need to start a petition, write to the DNC, blog, contact the media, etc. and point out that South Carolina, Iowa & New Hampshire also broke the rules.

If they remove those those delegates, what will that do to Obama's lead???

:confused::confused::confused:

Finally someone else notice this too.

[floorrunner]

"South Carolina, Iowa & New Hampshire also broke the rules."

So if these other three States also violated the primary date, then why is it only Florida and Michigan being penalized?

The only problem I can see for Hillary is that she promised, in Michigan, to take her name off the ballot, but then decided not to. But Hillary took this pledge along with the other candiates to remove her name, and that is why BO's name was removed from the ballot. Apparently another candidate's name also remained on the ballot because he didn't get his paperwork in on time or something like that. However, BO did violate the FL "rules" by campaigning when none of the candidates were supposed to that. BO ran ads for 3 weeks or so before the FL primary.

So they both violated the rules to some extent. Perhaps they can let FL stand and redo Michigan. Although it sucks because the States that broke the rules and get away with it, conveniently are the ones that went to BO, while the two that went to Hillary aren't being counted.


Actually Hillary never agreed to take her name off the Ballot. she only agreed to not campaign there. The others chose to take their names off the ballot.

[Patsy]

Part of the problem with a revote in Florida is that the polls show a revote would be pretty much the same as the original vote. There's two reasons why they don't want to do a revote: 1) because the original results would be the same as the revote - why waste the money and time; and 2) because the original results would be the same as the revote - why not just disallow it instead of allowing the voters to vote for Clinton when too many Dems in the Florida legislature favor Obama.

The Republicans in the Florida legislature, who can benefit in the general election from the DNC's stupidity in disenfranchising Florida voters, and the Obama supporters in the Florida legislature, who don't want these votes to tilt the election toward Clinton, outnumber those who want the votes to count.

Please state what poll to which you are referencing. No polling data has shown that to be true. There will now only be two candidates on the ballot and HRC made it very clear at the time the delegates were stripped by Howard Dean, which was over stating the parameters set forth in the DNC guidelines, that she would see that the delegates were seated at the Convention. This did not just start happening. Florida is Clinton Country. Floridians want their votes heard and the ONLY candidate who is interested in that has been HRC.


It's actually a Republican controlled Congress by about 2 to 1. So, the idea that Obama dems could hold up legislation is untrue. If ANY dems had that much power, then the amendment 537 that was put forth to the Legislature to set the Primary on Feb 5th so as to be within keeping of the DNC rules, would have been passed.

The fact is that the Republicans will gladly pass any legislation for a re-vote because it shows good faith on their part. The Governor has been advocating for it and working with Jennifer Granholm of Michigan on a bi-partisan solution. The issue that was rejected today was based on what Florida Democratic Voters wanted; no mail-in and to seat their delegates as-is. This had nothing to do with Obama supporters in the Florida Legislature. This was done by the State DNC after requesting input from ALL Dem voters.

Florida has a certified election result in which ALL candidates appeared on the ballot and one of them, yes Obama, advertised there prior to the Primary by doing a National Press Conference as well as his National Cable TV ad buy.

That is why the Florida DNC wants it seated as is. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Obama democrats. They have NO power in the Senate or House in Florida to block any re-vote legislation. The Republicans, for their own reasons, have stated, as in Michigan, that they will not oppose ANY legislation for a re-vote. The fact is, it is the Obama CAMPAIGN that does not want any re-do or the certified election to be seated.

There is another thread regarding an article that clearly outlines the DNC rules. This is a DNC implemented problem and the issue of resolving lies solely with the Obama Campaign. Not the Florida Legislature. They have been receptive to anything put forth as has HRC, Obama has not. He is actually the hold up in Michigan at the moment.

[mjoynaples]

they are caving. and they are blaming the republicans. and they want us to cave. absolutely not. the dnc stripped our votes. and i will not support them now. if obama gets this nomination, unfairly, i will do everything in my power to help john mccain win. the democrats did this and i am damned if i will go quietly into that good night by supporting a party who has rammed obama down my throat by denying florida our voices.[/QUOTE]



WRITE -IN for HILLARY no to McCain too... write her in on the Ballot in NOVEMBER if we have too!

[justme819]

PLEASE READ THE FLOR. DELEGATE E-MAIL THREAD FOR STARTERS!...LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD!...HILLARY`S CHANCES COULD VERY WELL DEPEND ON IT!!!

Murray...please check your messages, including private messages!!!

[xfiles]

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/17/93114/2956

The DNC rules allow the credentials committee...the bylaws and sanctions committee can lift any and all automatic sanctions.....

I have been posting here and everywhere, including to Howard Dean to simply amend the DNC rules and seat the delegates.

Get on with it!

[Patsy]

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/17/93114/2956

The DNC rules allow the credentials committee...the bylaws and sanctions committee can lift any and all automatic sanctions.....

I have been posting here and everywhere, including to Howard Dean to simply amend the DNC rules and seat the delegates.

Get on with it!

I say Amen to that! They backed the wrong horse and the only real way for them to get out while saving face would be to seat the delegates.

I'm not even from Florida, but I write Dean daily. But, he has his own agenda, people who worked for him and then went with him to the DNC have now "taken leave" from the DNC and some are working for Obama directly and others indirectly. Dean needs to go. His 50 State plan didn't work so well for him in 2004 and it's not going to work for the Dems in Nov either.

Sorry, needed to vent:)

[Joe from WI]

Do we need anymore reason (s) to go for Mccain or write in Hillary during GE?

[Patsy]

Do we need anymore reason (s) to go for Mccain or write in Hillary during GE?

I think you're spot on!

I know I'm leaving this party if they nominate Obama.

I might ask for my money back from the DNC just like those other guys in Florida did....Hmmmm.

[Teri B.]

Please state what poll to which you are referencing. No polling data has shown that to be true. There will now only be two candidates on the ballot and HRC made it very clear at the time the delegates were stripped by Howard Dean, which was over stating the parameters set forth in the DNC guidelines, that she would see that the delegates were seated at the Convention. This did not just start happening. Florida is Clinton Country. Floridians want their votes heard and the ONLY candidate who is interested in that has been HRC.


It's actually a Republican controlled Congress by about 2 to 1. So, the idea that Obama dems could hold up legislation is untrue. If ANY dems had that much power, then the amendment 537 that was put forth to the Legislature to set the Primary on Feb 5th so as to be within keeping of the DNC rules, would have been passed.

The fact is that the Republicans will gladly pass any legislation for a re-vote because it shows good faith on their part. The Governor has been advocating for it and working with Jennifer Granholm of Michigan on a bi-partisan solution. The issue that was rejected today was based on what Florida Democratic Voters wanted; no mail-in and to seat their delegates as-is. This had nothing to do with Obama supporters in the Florida Legislature. This was done by the State DNC after requesting input from ALL Dem voters.

Florida has a certified election result in which ALL candidates appeared on the ballot and one of them, yes Obama, advertised there prior to the Primary by doing a National Press Conference as well as his National Cable TV ad buy.

That is why the Florida DNC wants it seated as is. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Obama democrats. They have NO power in the Senate or House in Florida to block any re-vote legislation. The Republicans, for their own reasons, have stated, as in Michigan, that they will not oppose ANY legislation for a re-vote. The fact is, it is the Obama CAMPAIGN that does not want any re-do or the certified election to be seated.

There is another thread regarding an article that clearly outlines the DNC rules. This is a DNC implemented problem and the issue of resolving lies solely with the Obama Campaign. Not the Florida Legislature. They have been receptive to anything put forth as has HRC, Obama has not. He is actually the hold up in Michigan at the moment.

http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=39604&cat=5
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-fladelegates0314sbmar14,0,7411675.story
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1984230/posts
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080308/NEWS/803080384/1146

[Patsy]

http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=39604&cat=5
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-fladelegates0314sbmar14,0,7411675.story
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1984230/posts
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080308/NEWS/803080384/1146

Thank you.

[Patsy]

Thank you for your links.

Rasmussen indicates a high percentage for HRC which helps with the Popular vote not just delegate and it ensures the Super Delegates get seated.

Politico is pro-Obama. Always.

And the other two articles sit no polls, just the facts surrounding the mail-in.

I think it very likely that Dean will come under extreme pressure to seat the delegation as-is. It was certified with nearly 2 mil voters. The Dems can not afford to disenfranchise Florida and Michigan and ever hope to win the General.

No Democratic Politicians in Florida want a re-vote because they have a certified election where everyone was on the ballot. Not to mention that for people from the Obama camp to argue that voters were disenfranchised because they thought their vote wouldn't count in January is absurd because they neglects to mention their was a huge tax initiative on the ballot as well. The turnout was record high with all candidates being represented.

So, I guess we're in agreement on this, just not the polling issue and why it would benefit HRC to have a re-vote in a new Primary. She must have the Popular vote. No ifs ands or buts about it. Unless, for some strange reason, Obama resigns from the race with these latest controversies which is highly unlikely.

[xfiles]

The dems have to make it supremely difficult but the delegates can be seated and it is relatively easy to do:

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f822cfe4b06d0ea2b248ee81f5 414b61c80c8fd53d600bc58

DNC Delegate Selection Rules: Florida & Michigan

True or False?

1) The DNC Rules state that pledged delegates elected by Florida and Michigan voters must be excluded because those states scheduled primaries before February 5, 2008.

FALSE: The DNC Delegate Selection Rules explicitly give the Rules and Bylaws Committee and the Credentials Committee ultimate jurisdiction over delegate selection. These committees, each in their independent capacities, can seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida at their discretion.

2) The mandatory penalty for a state holding a primary before February 5, 2008 is exclusion of that state’s delegates from the Democratic National Convention.

FALSE: The mandatory penalty is exclusion of one half of the offending state’s pledged and alternate delegates. Unless otherwise provided, the other half of that state’s pledged and alternate delegates will be seated at the convention.

3) Any attempt to seat 100% of the pledged or unpledged delegates of Florida and Michigan at this point is “changing the rules.”

FALSE: The DNC Rules explicitly contemplate that excluded delegates will eventually be seated at the Convention. For states in violation of the timing rules, the DNC Delegate Selection Rules provide remedies to reinstate all of their delegates, both pledged and unpledged.

4) Florida is not entitled to reinstatement of its delegates because the Democrats in the Florida State Legislature did not make efforts to keep the state’s primary in compliance with DNC Rules.

FALSE: Evidence that that a Republican majority in the state legislature set the primary date in violation of the DNC timing rules in spite of efforts by the state’s Democratic legislators to keep the primary in compliance is grounds for appealing a DNC decision to strip a state of its delegates.

Though Florida has a 2:1 Republican legislative majority, the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee ruled that the Democratic minority did not make sufficient efforts to keep the primary date in compliance with DNC Rules. The Florida State Party disputes this factual finding. The State Party argues that the Democrats in the legislature were robbed of meaningful power to stop the Republican effort to set an early primary date because Republicans drafted the controlling legislation and packed it with other unrelated issues which the Democrats in the legislature felt they could not in good conscience oppose.

5) The DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee has taken action and is unable to change the sanctions imposed on Florida and Michigan.

FALSE: The Rules and Bylaws Committee has the power to lift any and all automatic sanctions along with the power to impose and modify additional sanctions. The Rules and Bylaws committee also has the power to create its own committee to create an alternative process for delegate selection should the state party not cooperate or be unable to resolve the issue on its own. The Rules and Bylaws Committee failed to use the tools it had to independently resolve the matter in good faith before Florida and Michigan voters went to the polls of the ill timed primaries to express their candidate preference.

6) Hillary violated the DNC Rules by keeping her name on the Michigan ballot.

FALSE: Nowhere in the DNC’s Delegate Selection Plans is there any suggestion or command that any candidate remove his or her name from a ballot in a state that is in violation of timing rules. This is why Obama and Edwards were on the Florida ballot, in spite of its primary also being before February 5.

7) Hillary manipulated the process by being the only candidate who kept her name on the Michigan ballot.

FALSE: Kucinich, Dodd and Gravel also kept their names on the Michigan ballot. In fact the decision of some candidates to remove their names from the Michigan ballot was a tactical move designed to curry favor with Democratic Party officials in Iowa who were concerned that the significance of their first-in-the-nation status was being diminished. The risk paid off handsomely for Obama.

Because Edwards and Obama were not on the Michigan ballot, that election cannot be considered a legitimate expression of voter preference of a presidential candidate.

FALSE: According to the Delegate Selection Rules & Bylaws, “Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters…” The Michigan ballot included an option for “uncommitted” to ensure that voters could express a presidential preference or uncommitted status consistent with this rule. Nothing in the Rules requires a state to allocate delegates to candidates who voluntarily remove their names from the ballot as John Edwards and Barack Obama did.

9) The primaries in Florida and Michigan are invalid because voters were under informed due to the lack of active campaigning.

FALSE: Voters in Florida and Michigan were very well informed. They had ample access to newspapers, television, books, radio, and the Internet. They could have availed themselves of over a year of coverage of the 2008 election. They could watch every campaign commercial on YouTube. They had the same opportunity as the rest of America to watch 17 televised debates.


See link above for the rest......

[ImmaSlave4U]

When I first heard this, I thought it was good news because they'd have to seat the delegates now. But everything I've read is saying this is bad news for Hillary and that it's very unlikely the delegates will be seated now.

What the hell can we do?!

[Patsy]

When I first heard this, I thought it was good news because they'd have to seat the delegates now. But everything I've read is saying this is bad news for Hillary and that it's very unlikely the delegates will be seated now.

What the hell can we do?!

Has no choice but to seat them. The Democrats do not stand a chance of winning in November if they do not seat the delegates from both Michigan and Florida. Florida would consent to a new Primary, but the DNC is broke b/c no one will donate until their votes are heard, or their Candidate is nominated and if you couple that with the lovely 2006 deficit Dean ran, they're in deep doo-doo.

Obama camp is the only one resisting new Primary. Todays defeat was in regards to mail in vote.

I still think Dean can not be dumb enough not to realize what he's doing if he doesn't address this.

I got another solicitation from the DNC today and I wrote back and told them that I thought the DNC had more pressing issues to resolve before concentrating on McCain and I could not in good consciousness donate any money to them until I was satisfied that these issues had been addressed and resolved.

[mooaks]

i'm affraid this is really bad for hillary, because i can hardly imagine the DNC will simply count the Florida votes:( What do you think?

I know that they will be seated and the votes counted as is. It is only logical. The ball is in the DNC court and they have but two choices: Either count the votes as they stand and seat the delegates. Or say bye bye to the Democratic party and give the election to McCain. Those are the only choices they have. Obama is not above the will of the people of Florida. The majority in the democratic side of the leger has spoken in Florida. Especially now. After all, isn't he the uniter, not a divider. The DNC knows that they had better resolve this issue, and do it immediately after the Pennsylvania primary, or reap the disastrous harvest.

[ALL4HILLARY]

MONEY ONLY FOR HILLARY. I WILL NOT HELP OBAMA IN NO WAY




I got an email today from Howard Dean asking for Money. lol Here is my response and his email.
--------------------------

Mr. Dean: I'll contribute when you seat the Florida and Michigan delegates and until then any donation I make will go directly to Hillary Clinton.
Regards,
xxxxxxxx

Howard Dean <democraticparty@democrats.org> wrote:

The Democratic Party


Dear xxxxxxxx,
Help lay the groundwork for our nomineeA year ago, no one would have guessed our party's primary season would still be going this strong. But that's not the only surprise of this election season.
Democrats are voting in larger numbers than anyone expected, and this record turnout shows incredible promise for the general election ahead of us.
But we also have a problem. John McCain has already sewn up the Republican nomination, and he's free to raise money and campaign all across the country.
The past few days, he's taken his campaign on a world tour at taxpayer expense. This weekend, he made a "surprise" stop in Iraq, trying to re-frame five years of steadfast support for George Bush's war with photo ops and press releases.
We can't afford to wait for Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama to win the Democratic nomination -- they're focused on winning the nomination while John McCain is focused on winning the White House. We are the only organization that can look beyond the primaries and lay the groundwork for Hillary or Barack to inherit if they win. They can't run against John McCain yet, but we can do it for them.
I need you to make a donation now so that we can continue our campaign against John McCain. Hillary or Barack will need the infrastructure in place as soon as they're nominated:
http://www.democrats.org/LookingAhead
Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are generating the sort of passion this country hasn't seen in a long time. Both of them are bringing new Democrats into the process -- and reactivating old ones who haven't voted in years.
In Texas, 2.8 million Democratic ballots were cast in our Party's primary. That's more votes than Al Gore or John Kerry received in Texas in the past two general elections.
Now states like Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Oregon, and Kentucky will have their chance to impact the presidential nomination process. That's more states that Barack or Hillary may never have visited if not for the enthusiasm everyone has for them. It's also more states where voters will show up in record numbers for the primary and general elections.
The energy we're seeing across the country is what the 50-State Strategy is all about: giving Democrats a party that can compete in areas we've continually ignored in past elections. It's not easy, and it's not cheap, but it's the best way for our party to win.
But every day that the Democratic primary continues, John McCain is hitting the campaign trail, misleading the American people about his record, contradicting himself on the issues, and attacking Hillary and Barack.
I need you to contribute right now so Hillary or Barack can make it to the White House in November:
http://www.democrats.org/LookingAhead
It's clear that there are benefits to a healthy, contested primary. But right now, John McCain thinks he can get a free pass while our campaigns are focused on each other.
You and I aren't going to let John McCain get ahead -- and we're going to do that by making sure Americans hear the truth about him.
From the war in Iraq and tax cuts for corporate special interests, McCain has put forth an astonishingly simple agenda: continue the Bush Administration's failed policies for another four years.
It's not just the Iraq War and tax breaks for the wealthy where John McCain falls in line with President Bush. Even on the unconventional issues that gave John McCain his "maverick" reputation, he has traded his integrity for a chance at the presidency.
This may not be news to you, but too many Americans don't know the facts about the Republican candidate for president, and Hillary or Barack can't get started just yet. Make a donation today and support our efforts to take him head-on and lay the groundwork for them:
http://www.democrats.org/LookingAhead
Thank you,
Howard Dean

[lucky-ann]

That's a statement by the clinton campaign on Florida

“Today’s announcement brings us no closer to counting the votes of the nearly 1.7 million people who voted in January. We hope the Obama campaign shares our belief that Florida’s voters must be counted and cannot be disenfranchised.”

well, what else should they say;)

[Ohio mom]

How can the DNC even consider splitting Florida's votes 50/50? Does anyone else get the impression that the DNC is running scared because of the scandel regarding BO's church, and now their "poster child" could potentially lose? I really think the DNC is pulling for BO and seating Florida's delegates 50/50 would give him the advantage. That cannot happen. I have a lot of friends in Florida who voted for Hillary in the primary. Can the DNC think they can just "wipe out" those votes? How many years are the Florida Democrats gonna be "screwed" out of their votes and continue supporting the DNC?

HILLARY WON FLORIDA!!!

I WAS WATCHING I THINK FOXNEWS(DON'T QUOTE ME) AND ONE OF THE PANELISTS COMMENTED THAT IF THEY TAKE OBAMA'S NOMINATION FROM HIM THERE WILL BE A CIVIL WAR!!! THEY ARE SCARED TO DEATH THAT IT WILL ACTUALLY COME DOWN TO THAT KIND OF REACTION. I DON'T AGREE, THERE WILL BE A DIVIDE FOR A WHILE, BUT THINGS WILL CALM DOWN AFTER THEY SEE WHAT HILLARY WILL DO FOR THE COUNTRY.

[Carolyn]

1. How long can the Obama camp stall in reaching a decision about a Michigan revote? My understanding is that Hillary has given a thumbs up, and the MI legislature is ready to go forward. Can he essentially filibuster until it's a moot point?
2. The two camps are gonna have to compromise. How bout letting the FLA vote stand, and holding a caucus in Michigan? (but Hill really needs to get the ground troops out this time)
3. How can Obama possibly say he has the lead in popular vote when two major states have been excluded AND many of his "votes" came from the 12 or 13 caucuses he won, representing more than half of his state "wins"?

[JMS825]

Obama will get the nod by hook or by crook. Dean is doing the same thing to FL as Bush did. How can Dean not see that he is destroying the DNC. Now they just announced on MSNBC that a re-vote in Michigan is not likely. The Obama supporters on the Michigan state board is trying to kill the revote and Hillary is making sure people know it is Obama trying to kill it.

[ImmaSlave4U]

I keep reading "Hillary is running out of options"

Ugh!

[Teri B.]

Thank you for your links.

Rasmussen indicates a high percentage for HRC which helps with the Popular vote not just delegate and it ensures the Super Delegates get seated.

Politico is pro-Obama. Always.

And the other two articles sit no polls, just the facts surrounding the mail-in.

I think it very likely that Dean will come under extreme pressure to seat the delegation as-is. It was certified with nearly 2 mil voters. The Dems can not afford to disenfranchise Florida and Michigan and ever hope to win the General.

No Democratic Politicians in Florida want a re-vote because they have a certified election where everyone was on the ballot. Not to mention that for people from the Obama camp to argue that voters were disenfranchised because they thought their vote wouldn't count in January is absurd because they neglects to mention their was a huge tax initiative on the ballot as well. The turnout was record high with all candidates being represented.

So, I guess we're in agreement on this, just not the polling issue and why it would benefit HRC to have a re-vote in a new Primary. She must have the Popular vote. No ifs ands or buts about it. Unless, for some strange reason, Obama resigns from the race with these latest controversies which is highly unlikely.


Well, when I read the poll (and I heard this reported, and found a link when you questioned it), I see Hillary had won by 17% in Florida, and the poll showing her ahead by 16%. Maybe the person I heard commenting on it on CNN and I are both reading it wrong.

Frankly, I'm pissed as hell about this. The only people punished by this mess are the voters, of Florida and the nation, as usual. And all these people in power, from the party bosses to the state legislature in Florida, will do what they want to do in defiance of the voters, in defiance of what is right, and in defiance of our supposed principles. WHERE IS AL GORE?!? We're being sold out AGAIN!

[Amy Dugan]

i must say as someone who knows the clintons, this whole florida michigan thing has kept me up 2 nights now.

she will NOT have the popular vote without these states. She can always say at the convention, I do not have as much of the popular vote as Obama, but then again we will never know because (not sure the total number of disenfranchised voters in MI and FL) people have not voted yet.



The USA Today/Gallop poll that shows that 55% of democrats and independents leaning democrat would disapprove and find it unfair of Hillary winning the nomination with fewer pledged delegates than Obama and this included 28% of Clinton supporters. I am bummed

[leahchamblee]

I think the deal is this. Either the Democrats believe that people have a right to speak or not. If not then it is unlikely I will ever vote Democrat again. If the Democrats are not interested in Michigan or Florida perhaps it is time that people who believe in the right of citizens to vote form a new party that has as it's foundation a few principles, perhaps some of them even found in the Bill of Rights, that and grandma supporters.

It sickens me that we have allowed racism to go as far as it has. Black/White/or Green someone who preaches the elimination of a race, or glories in the misfortunes of a race via it's nationality as identified as a race, don't deserve grandma's anyhow. they certainly will not get my vote, counted or not.

[Patsy]

i must say as someone who knows the clintons, this whole florida michigan thing has kept me up 2 nights now.

she will NOT have the popular vote without these states. She can always say at the convention, I do not have as much of the popular vote as Obama, but then again we will never know because (not sure the total number of disenfranchised voters in MI and FL) people have not voted yet.



The USA Today/Gallop poll that shows that 55% of democrats and independents leaning democrat would disapprove and find it unfair of Hillary winning the nomination with fewer pledged delegates than Obama and this included 28% of Clinton supporters. I am bummed

Obama's speech? If it's after, then that's not good, but if it was taken before then it can hold no credence.


Also depends on if it's Zogby, whose son works for Obama, or McClatchy who's in cahoots with NBC and the list goes on.

Rasmussen and AP are usually better but never really get sited by MSM.

All that being said, it is a known fact that the Obama camp is dragging its heals regarding Michigan because the Legislation needs to be passed by the end of the week.

If he doesn't agree to something, then he has lost all credibility in my opinion and should in the eyes of every Democrat. Lest we forget 2000? No disenfranchising voters. It's unacceptable.

I have every idea that at the convention he will ask for them to be seated. To appear as though he's doing the right thing. But, the Clinton campaign will not and should not accept a split. Especially in light of Churchgate.

A Miami businessman is suing the DNC over the Florida debacle and the unfairness of the DNC to provide so much power to those few states (IA, NH, etc.) It was debunked by Florida Courts and is now being Heard by the Court of Appeals. If they do not overturn the ruling, then the Plaintiff and the Attorney will go to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has always held that the RNC and DNC are private entities and make their own rules. However, as conservative as they are, they may wish to weigh in on this to show the idiocy of the DNC to everyone. Or being State Rights' Activists, they very well could decide this is a State matter. I find it hard to believe that Dean will allow the DNC to go before the Supremes. That would be Political suicide, not that he hasn't committed that over and over again during this Primary. He's like that bloody Timex. Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. But not for long.

If the Plaintiff should succeed in proving that the DNC actually is representative of the people and that by allowing power to the few it does in fact disenfranchise the majority, not just Florida, then they are violating the Constitutional Right to Vote for all Americans. NC never gets a say, which is an example of the power of the few over the majority.

I'm following this and hope for once the right wing and of the Supremes can't pass up the opportunity to make the DNC look like fools.

Just my thoughts.

I don't want another 4 years of McBush and I will not have ANY years of Obama.

[wwendiep]

They had better count Florida's votes and give them to Hillary. BO says he didn't campaign in FL. Well, NONE OF THEM DID!! But HRC won anyway so she should get those delegates!!!

obama ran ads in on cable networks in florida for 2 weeks .guess you didn t hear that on news huh.but he did

[ginamc]

i'm affraid this is really bad for hillary, because i can hardly imagine the DNC will simply count the Florida votes:( What do you think?
BO is pushing that the Delegates be seated 50/50, according to him, that's the fair thing to do. If not, LAWSUITS from the BO Camp because according to Sharpton those are voting Rights violations b/c many Floridians did NOT vote, because they were told not to. It's just one more BO tactic. Watch, he won't be satisified until he takes the delegates 50/50.

[Jayling]

Sharpton and his bs rhetoric is one reason I created this graph:

http://www.diversityj.com/images/FloridaDems.jpg

And much more on the Florida Stats from 2008 to 2000 (http://www.diversityj.com/Florida2000to2008.html).

The numbers tell the truth.

[Bella]

BO is pushing that the Delegates be seated 50/50, according to him, that's the fair thing to do. If not, LAWSUITS from the BO Camp because according to Sharpton those are voting Rights violations b/c many Floridians did NOT vote, because they were told not to. It's just one more BO tactic. Watch, he won't be satisified until he takes the delegates 50/50.


Sharpton is full of it! Nobody was told not to vote. I have family in FL and the Obama ground troops were out in force campaigning for him. Grassroots still put on a GOTV for him. Hahaha, I can't believe the lies that come out of the Obama camp. They also told their supporters to vote uncomitted in MI.

They are scared of a re-vote. I was down there for spring break and talked to people in Orange and Lake Counties and not a single person was for Obama. There were a lot of Ron Paul supporters though.

[daniperez]

IF FLORIDA DOESN'T COUNT IT IS OVER FOR THE DEMOCRATS PERIOD!

THEY LOSE! I have lived in Florida and if they are given the shaft they will give the Dems the shaft. They have no reservations about voting Republican.


100% of the FL votes need to count--fair and square! Hillary's only chance (seemingly) is to pull ahead of BO in the POPULAR vote and close the gap in delegates.

I know we are concentrating on the protest for this FRI (yea!) but we also need to bombard the DNC, Media, Superdelegates, Obama supporters that
these votes NEED to COUNT--now! Anything less is a disgrace.

[sisterdo]

OBAMA THE RULE BREAKER, PASS IT ON

1) Obama broke the rules by doing a national ad in FL on CNN-- broke the rule against campaigning in FL

2) Obama broke the rules by doing a mini-press conference outside a South Florida mansion where he was getting big money from millionaires -- again, no press conferences

3) Obama did a shout out TO FLORIDA at the end of his South Carolina "I'm a winner" speech. It's on tape! He wanted to count Florida back in South Carolina.

SPREAD THE TRUTH

[SD]

Sharpton and his bs rhetoric is one reason I created this graph:

http://www.diversityj.com/images/FloridaDems.jpg

And much more on the Florida Stats from 2008 to 2000 (http://www.diversityj.com/Florida2000to2008.html).

The numbers tell the truth.

excellent chart!!!

BO is pushing that the Delegates be seated 50/50, according to him, that's the fair thing to do. If not, LAWSUITS from the BO Camp because according to Sharpton those are voting Rights violations b/c many Floridians did NOT vote, because they were told not to.

this is bs. nobody told anybody "not to vote". and in fact, as the chart shows, we had an exceptionally high turnout. i can't speak for michigan, but we floridians voted, it was a fair election, and we refuse to now just hand over half our delegates to the loser. sharpton can try to sue all he wants. the man has the credibility of a dead slug. our election was fair. count us now!

[Laura Cereta]

I've been advising them as well that I won't volunteer or donate anymore until I'm assured our votes, as chosen on Jan. 29th in a free and fair election, will be counted and our delegates sat accordingly. Until then, I'm on strike!! :mad: