NOTE: Reminder to Republican Vistors - This is a HILLARY CLINTON forum!

[CGP]

A few reminders...

Yes, it's great that this forum has befriended a few visitors from Republican sites and yes, you are welcome to join in the discussions here as there is some kind of shared agenda at this time. There have been many interesting & balanced discussions over the past few weeks.

BUT (referring to a very small minority of posters):

This is NOT the place to push Republican policies & viewpoints. Yes, many of the Hillary supporters here are opposed to Obama's candidacy and are willing to vote for McCain, but that does NOT mean many of these same supporters embrace Republican policies. Quite the opposite.

Personally, I don't support Barack Obama but I certainly do not support Republican policies either. Although I may not be supporting the Democratic Party nominee for 2008 that doesn't mean I am against the fundamental ideals of the Democratic Party. No, the opposite is true - I very much embrace the ideals of the Democratic Party - but not the people currently running that party. I am sure there are many others who feel the same way. It is possible to vote for McCain & disagree with Republican policies.

Ultimately this is a pro-Hillary Clinton forum. Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. Expressing views and support for policies which conflict greatly with the politics of Hillary Clinton will cause conflict here. Examples of unacceptable content includes anti-choice and anti-gay propaganda. Got it?

Thank you.

(Apologies to those Republican visitors for whom this message does not apply & who have respected that this is a Hillary Clinton forum - you can ignore the above post).

[Artists4Hillary]

Thank you Muzza!

[truebluesenior]

Timely rudder. Thanks.

[eyedoc333]

Amen.

[Agent 00½ FL]

It is possible to vote for McCain & disagree with Republican policies.

This pretty much sums it up.

[NileQT87]

Sorry if I've crossed the line in any way. I try to mostly keep my wrath for Obama (which is why I came here during research). I do admit being a bit more excited with McCain/Palin news than Hillary/Bill news, but I try to mostly keep most comments to myself (a few lapses that I'm very sorry for).

However, I respect the Clintons far more this election than a good chunk of the party. I think they have been treated unfairly and I realize they are now really trapped within Obama's control.

I don't think I've offended anyone on religion, gay rights (haven't mentioned it at all), etc... I did mention that I prefer the word "equalism" over "feminism", but I hope that wasn't out of line.

A few Vietnam/John Kerry comments popped up. I am sorry for that.

Unfortunately, this is by far the best forum (fortunately for you guys!) that is discussing all the media relating to this race. The few Republican places I've found are largely far behind in information.

[samkm]

Muzza, Thanks for the timely reminder.

[Cricket22]

I am glad to see this as I was beginning to think this had become a Republican / Palin forum. I am a Democrat who believes in the long-time principles and policies of the party. I will not vote for Obama but that doesn't mean that I am comfortable with the elevation of Palin to Hillary status by some. There are miles of difference between the two though both are women. I hope we can keep some reality here even though some of us will vote for McCain as an anti-Obama vote. I still am trying to decide between McCain and the Green party versus no vote for president but yes on down-party Democrats.

[AKFamily]

I'm a Republican but put Country before Party. In this election we voted for Hillary in the primary because we thought the Republican party was going with Romney. He may have an R behind his name however we had no idea where he stood because he'll say something different when the winds change unlike Hillary who while we may not agree with everything she says, we at least know where she stands. I like this forum because it seems like you can have normal folks from both parties come together and agree on a wide range of issues that will move this country forward regardless of a D or R on your voter ID card & that is something that's been missing for years.

[joeysky18]

Thanks Muzza. It's a good reminder as I have to remove many posts that criticize the value of the Democrats.

As a side note, I want to say thank you to all Republican members who have contributed to a constructive conversation in the forum. I enjoy exchanging ideas with you guys.

[Moon Child]

I'm a conservative who initially didn't think well of McCain. I stood up for Hillary more than most Republicans, but there were some things I disliked about her. Wow, this forum is enlightening, as now I have pretty high opinions of both!

[geneo]

politics aside, i think this is one of the best most informative sites on the web:D and im a hardcore conservative. i do whats best for country not party. thats why i voted for hillary in the virginia primaries,and do belive she got robbed by her own party.

[PuppyDogMom]

I was beginning to wonder if this had become the McCain/Palin forum. Glad for the reminder.

[Eddie3dfx]

politics aside, i think this is one of the best most informative sites on the web:D and im a hardcore conservative. i do whats best for country not party. thats why i voted for hillary in the virginia primaries,and do belive she got robbed by her own party.

Whats your take on how virginia is going to vote.
The polls say it's close, but I actually seriously doubt that.
I personally believe it's a landslide win for mccain in virginia.

[cindyb]

I am glad to see this as I was beginning to think this had become a Republican / Palin forum. I am a Democrat who believes in the long-time principles and policies of the party. I will not vote for Obama but that doesn't mean that I am comfortable with the elevation of Palin to Hillary status by some. There are miles of difference between the two though both are women. I hope we can keep some reality here even though some of us will vote for McCain as an anti-Obama vote. I still am trying to decide between McCain and the Green party versus no vote for president but yes on down-party Democrats.


I am a Republican and I realize that Sarah Palin has a long way to go before she can go up against Hillary Clinton.

I think Republicans need to get over any anti-gay deal they have. I believe millions have and the ones that haven't will just have to shut up.

I am pro-choice in the first trimester and pro-life after that, if that makes any sense.

I love this site for the sense of comraderie and I love the bipartisanship.
Country first is what it always should be.

[Still-a-Republican]

It is possible to vote for McCain & disagree with Republican policies.

It's possible to be a Republican vote for McCain and disagree with his policies.;)

[Brooke]

It's possible to be a Republican vote for McCain and disagree with his policies.;)

Hahaha..I like this!!

I've found the Republicans on here to be quite insightful, smart and witty. But yes, I was getting a bit concerned about the tone of this place too. Thank you, Muzza for doing such a great job.

And thanks for the compliments on this being the best place on the web for info. :)

[geneo]

Whats your take on how virginia is going to vote.
The polls say it's close, but I actually seriously doubt that.
I personally believe it's a landslide win for mccain in virginia.

from your mouth to gods ear! obama is stumping around here hard.virginia,s demographics are changing, easpecially northern Virginia. macain was up by 6,its gonna be close.

[diane]

I am sure there are many others who feel the same way. It is possible to vote for McCain & disagree with Republican policies.


Yes, there are many others who feel the same way!---I'm one of them! : ) Thanks for a well needed reminded for some of our republican posters.

[Kbentleyis]

Thanks Muzza. group hug...

[VotingHillary]

Thanks, Muzza! I too was starting to feel like some unhired "decorators" were trying to redo our house! Hillary's house, Hillary-supporters internet home!!

[buffaloboy]

Thanks, Muzza! I too was starting to feel like some unhired "decorators" were trying to redo our house! Hillary's house, Hillary-supporters internet home!!

As a Republican I certainly hope that I never cross the line here - I'm well aware that the original purpose of this form was to support Hillary Clinton (it should be kind of obvious to anybody that looks at the URL). But I think the fact I have twice voted for Hillary Clinton for US Senate should give me at least one or two points here. ;-)

If somebody invites me over to their house, I'm not going to flame their politics in their house no matter how much I disagree with them. I might leave the house, but simple politeness dictates that you behave yourself when you are somebody's guest.

Anyway, if you are completely in the tank for Sarah Palin, you can always spend your time here:
http://www.sarahpalinforum.org/

I'm sure you can be as enthusiastic as you want there.

[Isis46]

Muzza: I guess it is time for me to come out of the closet. :D

Mainly, I am a flaming capitalist. However, on a majority of issues I side more with the GOP (mainly on economic matters). Unlike many Republicans, I am not a social conservative, so while I agree with Palin on this matter, it is not my #1 issue and will vote for someone based primarily on my economic sensibilities.

I work as a free-lancer for a Fox News affiliate, and have close connections to some well known blog sites. I embedded myself here at the time of the Democrat connection, because I sensed that there was less "unity" than the legacy media was presenting. I was able to provide some of the PUMA reports to my media sources at that time, and will continue to do so, when it promotes your cause.

To be honest, I would/would have vote(d) for some Democrats (e.g., Lieberman, Zell Miller, JFK). However, Obama's South Chicago, Black-Liberation, Communism deserves not only to be voted against, but to be actively defeated by anyone who treasures American Liberty.

I have come to really value your site, because of the fresh link and perspectives. I also deeply appreciate the mostly civil discourse, and this is only one of two sites I know where thoughtful discourse is encouraged and promoted.

I, for one, will respect that this is a Hillary Clinton forum. Actually, we Republicans owe her a deep debt of gratitude for showing McCain the way to defeat Obama. Frankly, I was getting increasingly angry at the media for continuously kicking her to the curb.

As a mark of respect, I will be putting some money in your kitty next week. Also, should the PUMAs help defeat Obama in the general election, I will be donating to the Hillary Clinton debt-relief fund. Right now, my discretionary dollars need to go to McCain. However, should McCain win, I would be delighted to lend some financial support to Hillary!

Yes, Obama: Capitalism does work.

Thanks so much for the forum.

Sincerely

Isis46
(aka Mutnodjmet)

[RachachaSharon]

Thanks, Muzza.

[Still-a-Republican]

If somebody invites me over to their house, I'm not going to flame their politics in their house no matter how much I disagree with them. I might leave the house, but simple politeness dictates that you behave yourself when you are somebody's guest.


Awesome post and agreed 100%! One of my best friends favorite saying is
" I am so Liberal color me pink" I am a Conservative but this is a man that I admire and have come to respect in many ways. Yes we disagree in our politics but he loves his Country as much as I do and we never let politics corrupt our friendship and NEVER will. ;)

[ellyp]

Thanks, Muzza!

I love this forum! I love the interplay of ideas and the respect that I have seen people give to each other. I think it's healthy to discuss what you believe with those who might disagree with you. I believe it's good to challenge myself as to why I believe what I believe by doing this. If I hang out with people who think the same way I do all the time, I become intellectually shallow. I am so enjoying hanging out with very committed Democrats who are idealistic like me (except I'm from the Republican side). I thank all of you moderators for all your hard work!!! I think the tone on this forum is a positive one in spite of the frustration so many of us feel at the strong-arm tactics by the obots.

[gaziza]

It is a good place to hang out if you are a republican and interested in the election, the dynamic of unhappy Hillary voters and information in general. Not the place for policy arguments though.

The only thing that gives me pause here is the weird line when criticizing "Democrats" but not meaning you Democrats. So generally I try not to do it. If I do, I say "Obama supporters" or something similar, since I am talking about the people running the party at the moment, his campaign, and a fringe element of the party that supports him and seems to have no qualms about any tactics. But it is sometimes weird, because I don't mean every democrat. Plus it is a little like the old saw about not criticizing an ethnic group if you are not part of it. In many ways it is an intramural fight, for you guys to sort out eventually. But I hope you win it.

[Christines]

I think it is good to remind all members that this is the Hillary Clinton Forum.

[jerseygirl7]

I am glad to see this as I was beginning to think this had become a Republican / Palin forum. I am a Democrat who believes in the long-time principles and policies of the party. I will not vote for Obama but that doesn't mean that I am comfortable with the elevation of Palin to Hillary status by some. There are miles of difference between the two though both are women. I hope we can keep some reality here even though some of us will vote for McCain as an anti-Obama vote. ....

Agreed too. Noticed a huge increase in the numbers of members online in late August and into September. Assumed many of these new members were Republicans. Welcome but please remember we came together and to this Forum as Democrats supporting Hillary Clinton and we will continue our support of her again for 2012!

[ZY123]

This is NOT the place to push Republican policies & viewpoints. Yes, many of the Hillary supporters here are opposed to Obama's candidacy and are willing to vote for McCain, but that does NOT mean many of these same supporters embrace Republican policies. Quite the opposite.

Personally, I don't support Barack Obama but I certainly do not support Republican policies either. Although I may not be supporting the Democratic Party nominee for 2008 that doesn't mean I am against the fundamental ideals of the Democratic Party. No, the opposite is true - I very much embrace the ideals of the Democratic Party - but not the people currently running that party. I am sure there are many others who feel the same way. It is possible to vote for McCain & disagree with Republican policies.

Ultimately this is a pro-Hillary Clinton forum. Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. Expressing views and support for policies which conflict greatly with the politics of Hillary Clinton will cause conflict here. Examples of unacceptable content includes anti-choice and anti-gay propaganda. Got it?
[/I]

Thank you!

Can we also add propaganda against certain religions? (including agnostic and atheist?) Democratic principles include acceptance of all people and that includes all religions (including agnostics and atheists). I've seen a lot of subtle digs at atheists and agnostics here ever since the Democratic convention ended.

I will be voting McCain but I don't and won't ever support Republican social policies. I don't support Obama but at the same time I haven't done a complete 180 and started supporting the Republican party either. Hillary believes in the Democratic policies and ideals that I support and believe in - that's why I became a supporter of hers in the first place.

I was beginning to wonder if this had become the McCain/Palin forum. Glad for the reminder.

I had thought the same thing....I can't wait until the election is over personally....then we can move on to better things. ;)

[Tim4Hillary]

Thanks Muzza. :):):)

[foreigner4hillary]

Once again, this is EXACTLY why I believe this forum is so popular. It's because Muzza insists on high standards and keeping it respectful. I know I appreciate it and I'm sure I speak for most of us here.

Thank you for this refuge.

[mjoynaples]

Plan B and then Plan HRC-2012....


and again so appreciate this place and really liking the conversations and bi-partisianship too....and intense focus that unites us NOBAMA!

[Puppetsock]

I was a registered Independent for twenty years. To me, neither party deserves loyalty. Over and over again they have both let the voters down. This year, I changed my registration to Democrat so that I could vote for Senator Clinton in the primary. I so wanted Hillary to get it so that I could vote for the best. Thankfully, John McCain won the Republican nomination so that I feel no guilt voting for him. I have always had a soft spot for him. As the preschool teachers say, "He works well with others."

[NBM]

My only 'agenda' has been in the spirit of support and "country first". My heart went out to the plight Hillary supporters went through during the Democratic convention, and I found the integrity and intelligence of your posts throughout to be irresistible. Because of the open minded spirit of the wonderful members here, it has gone beyond partisan to what I consider to be a type of revolution. Changes have occurred, in different degrees, to many members and myself, and the mutual respect has been rewarding.

What's at stake is the survival of our country, which is more important to me than any single issues where we may differ. And prejudice is always unacceptable, so you'll never hear an anti-gay remark from me.

If I ever posted anything, or ever do, that inadvertently offends anybody, I apologize, and hope that it would be pointed out immediately to me by another member's post or PM. At this point, I'm not aware that I have. And when I've mention "democrats", I'm referring to the same 'undemocrats' that you are - not real Democrats.

So please bear in mind, in my case, that my intentions are never to bother anybody. I only want my presence here to be a gentle one of support, understanding and learning, and if it's ever perceived in a different way, I would leave. While I don't know any of you personally, and regardless of what the election holds, the members here and Hillary have solidly gained my permanent, deep respect.

[CGP]

If I ever posted anything, or ever do, that inadvertently offends anybody, I apologize, and hope that it would be pointed out immediately to me by another member's post or PM. At this point, I'm not aware that I have.

No, you haven't. You have been very well behaved. :cool:

[CGP]

I have come to really value your site, because of the fresh link and perspectives. I also deeply appreciate the mostly civil discourse, and this is only one of two sites I know where thoughtful discourse is encouraged and promoted.


This is great feedback - thank you!

[Suzan]

Thanks, Muzza! And thanks to our Republican members for your responses. Personally, I'm really pleased at the peaceful co-existence of Dems, Indies and Republicans so far--and the tolerance shown for different points of view. If anyone has crossed the line, I haven't seen it, but I can't keep up with all the posts.

So, Isis, you're a free-lance journalist? Then you must be reading our posts about our frustration with the MSM. What do you think of the state of journalism today? Is Sean Hannity right that it's dead?

[velocet]

Well I'm busted, looks like.




I was hoping to get HRC supporters to think about another possible candidate...









a man of peerless integrity, honesty and honor...







...I'm serious, this guy could be trusted with the keys to the country...








...I say we draft...
















http://www.buddytv.com/articles/Image/tim-gunn-show.jpg

Tim Gunn for President!





velocet

[AKFamily]

Well I'm busted, looks like.




I was hoping to get HRC supporters to think about another possible candidate...



a man of peerless integrity, honesty and honor...



...I'm serious, this guy could be trusted with the keys to the country...




...I say we draft...


http://www.buddytv.com/articles/Image/tim-gunn-show.jpg

Tim Gunn for President!


velocet

Do you work for MSNBC? I swear I've seen your style before :D;)

[samkm]

Muzza: I guess it is time for me to come out of the closet. :D

Mainly, I am a flaming capitalist. However, on a majority of issues I side more with the GOP (mainly on economic matters). Unlike many Republicans, I am not a social conservative, so while I agree with Palin on this matter, it is not my #1 issue and will vote for someone based primarily on my economic sensibilities.

I work as a free-lancer for a Fox News affiliate, and have close connections to some well known blog sites. I embedded myself here at the time of the Democrat connection, because I sensed that there was less "unity" than the legacy media was presenting. I was able to provide some of the PUMA reports to my media sources at that time, and will continue to do so, when it promotes your cause.

To be honest, I would/would have vote(d) for some Democrats (e.g., Lieberman, Zell Miller, JFK). However, Obama's South Chicago, Black-Liberation, Communism deserves not only to be voted against, but to be actively defeated by anyone who treasures American Liberty.

I have come to really value your site, because of the fresh link and perspectives. I also deeply appreciate the mostly civil discourse, and this is only one of two sites I know where thoughtful discourse is encouraged and promoted.

I, for one, will respect that this is a Hillary Clinton forum. Actually, we Republicans owe her a deep debt of gratitude for showing McCain the way to defeat Obama. Frankly, I was getting increasingly angry at the media for continuously kicking her to the curb.

As a mark of respect, I will be putting some money in your kitty next week. Also, should the PUMAs help defeat Obama in the general election, I will be donating to the Hillary Clinton debt-relief fund. Right now, my discretionary dollars need to go to McCain. However, should McCain win, I would be delighted to lend some financial support to Hillary!

Yes, Obama: Capitalism does work.

Thanks so much for the forum.

Sincerely

Isis46
(aka Mutnodjmet)
Thanks for your honesty.
Yes, we must work together to defeat Obama if we are to save liberty and democracy. This is the clearest learning from the Primaries.

And I believe Hillary has shown how to defeat Obama. She did win the popular vote, and she did win the Electoral Vote if you go by which states she has won.

[eyedoc333]

Another thing that is important to remember is that some Hillary supporters consider ourselves to be "liberal" Democrats. Hillary is great in the way that she gains support across a broad spectrum, from liberals to moderates to centrists, etc. Let's resolve not to use "liberal" as a negative descriptor out of respect for the many liberals who do post here.

[samurai007]

Another thing that is important to remember is that some Hillary supporters consider ourselves to be "liberal" Democrats. Hillary is great in the way that she gains support across a broad spectrum, from liberals to moderates to centrists, etc. Let's resolve not to use "liberal" as a negative descriptor out of respect for the many liberals who do post here.

I have tried to use "leftist" or "radical leftist". I don't think "Obot" is sufficient, since those folks were here long before Obama, and will be around long after Obama is gone. But I'm open to suggestions.

Muzza, I know this is your board, and we conservatives are guests, but I'd like to say 2 things about your original post. First, I think Republicans may well have a lot of very worthy, and even very similar, ideals as you moderate Democrats. We are not some evil rapacious gang who hate your ideals and goals. Very often we agree with those ideals, we just have some different thoughts on how best to reach those ideals. We cherish freedom, equality, and liberty at least as much as you do. And I think you know that, or else you wouldn't be a PUMA, you'd be holding your nose and voting Obama. So discussions about Republican thoughts and beliefs are not opposition to your ideals, they are support for your ideals, but perhaps from a different angle than you've heard before.

Which brings me to my 2nd point... this forum and the bringing together of 2 traditionally disparate sides to fight a common enemy is a rare and precious opportunity. I'm sure I speak for all my fellow Republicans here when I say that we certainly don't want to ruin that bond by pushing a conservative agenda too strongly. But IMHO it would also be a shame to waste such an opportunity to share thoughts and ideas, to perhaps gain a greater understanding of each other, to destroy old myths, stereotypes, and animosities and perhaps build bridges that could last much longer than just this election cycle.

[ginamc]

A few reminders...

Yes, it's great that this forum has befriended a few visitors from Republican sites and yes, you are welcome to join in the discussions here as there is some kind of shared agenda at this time. There have been many interesting & balanced discussions over the past few weeks.

BUT (referring to a very small minority of posters):

This is NOT the place to push Republican policies & viewpoints. Yes, many of the Hillary supporters here are opposed to Obama's candidacy and are willing to vote for McCain, but that does NOT mean many of these same supporters embrace Republican policies. Quite the opposite.

Personally, I don't support Barack Obama but I certainly do not support Republican policies either. Although I may not be supporting the Democratic Party nominee for 2008 that doesn't mean I am against the fundamental ideals of the Democratic Party. No, the opposite is true - I very much embrace the ideals of the Democratic Party - but not the people currently running that party. I am sure there are many others who feel the same way. It is possible to vote for McCain & disagree with Republican policies.

Ultimately this is a pro-Hillary Clinton forum. Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. Expressing views and support for policies which conflict greatly with the politics of Hillary Clinton will cause conflict here. Examples of unacceptable content includes anti-choice and anti-gay propaganda. Got it?

Thank you.

(Apologies to those Republican visitors for whom this message does not apply & who have respected that this is a Hillary Clinton forum - you can ignore the above post).

THANK YOU for saying this, Muzza! Great points.

[buffaloboy]

Another thing that is important to remember is that some Hillary supporters consider ourselves to be "liberal" Democrats. Hillary is great in the way that she gains support across a broad spectrum, from liberals to moderates to centrists, etc. Let's resolve not to use "liberal" as a negative descriptor out of respect for the many liberals who do post here.

I'll try to avoid that term, but it's hard, because most of the looniest Obama supporters also happen to be liberal. Obama himself is very liberal - possibly the most liberal member of the Senate, and also one of the most partisan. It's really the partisanship that bothers me more than the liberalism

How about, when I want to be negative, if I only use that term with "loony" in front of it, as in "loony liberal", to distinguish them from respectable liberals (and I do think there are a lot of respectable liberals). Or maybe "pointy-headed partisans" would be more accurate.

Let's face it - there's a lot of good things that liberals have done in this country. The Civil Rights movement is now mainstream in this country, but years ago, it was a liberal cause - it was a very rare conservative who was strongly committed to that cause, and there were plenty who opposed it outright.

And regardless of what you think of George W. Bush's foreign policy, when he promotes democracy in other countries, he is promoting what for hundreds of years has been a liberal cause. That's why the countries in the G7 are referred to as "liberal democracies". Liberal democracy is a good thing. I don't think I've ever seen the term "conservative democracy".

I'm sure Hillary Clinton would call herself a liberal. I just don't think she's an extreme liberal. Similarly for John McCain, he would call himself a conservative, but I don't think he's an extreme conservative. Nobody can ever play it totally straight down the middle - everybody leans a little, either left or right. I got no problem with anybody that falls within two standard deviations of the middle of the political spectrum, in either direction - it's the outliers on both sides that drive me crazy.

I do also use "conservative" as a pejorative, from time to time, when referring to the extemists on that side. So hopefully that makes you feel better. :)

[Isis46]

Thanks, Muzza! And thanks to our Republican members for your responses. Personally, I'm really pleased at the peaceful co-existence of Dems, Indies and Republicans so far--and the tolerance shown for different points of view. If anyone has crossed the line, I haven't seen it, but I can't keep up with all the posts.

So, Isis, you're a free-lance journalist? Then you must be reading our posts about our frustration with the MSM. What do you think of the state of journalism today? Is Sean Hannity right that it's dead?

You see, my father was a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist in 1968. My mother also wrote on newspapers (the second woman, and the first beat reporter, for the local city news). They were/are both elite, Eastern liberals (my dad died in 1997, my mom is currently a PUMA in Michigan.

They were both extreme liberals, bordering on anarchists. My mom burnt bras and was an original NOW member. My dad grew his hair long and drank with the coeds at the university he taught (after he left the newspaper).

However, when you read their work, it was all Who, What, Where Why When and How. Reporting, pure and simple. No opinion.

That all started changing with Watergate and Bernstein/Woodward. Then, every student wanted to do "investigations" and "change the world". This is the mind-set of the journalism student today. My dad was trying to fight this, but it was a losing battle.

I got into journalism through the back door. I have multiple science degrees and, rare for a scientist, I am adept at communication -- making the complex simple, but accurate. So, when my dad got me my first job, I got to do a lot of writing on scientific subjects -- because no other reporter could understand what was being explained. In fact, the reason I free lance, is that several member of the local scientific community don't trust their news to be reported accurate by anyone but myself.

As I see it, the news reporting today suffers from people wanted to inject their world views into their writing, and not report the facts or the undiluted opinions of others. Two of the areas that suffer the most are the science/technology news and the military reporting -- and these are areas that I feel news organizations should look got the scientists and ex-military and utilize them, not the weakly-educated journalism student.

The new media has got a watch on the legacy media, and more people are paying attention via the Internet and radio. It is my opinion that the relationship between the legacy media and the new media is best represented by the following graphic:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/dinosaur-images-130-resize.jpg

No, journalism is not dead. But it looks different. There are some solid reporters out there, Jake Tapper comes to mind. As does Britt Hume and Chris Wallace. However, it is in an ugly period of transition, and I think this is the time people will remember as being when the mask was fully ripped of the legacy media.

Getting back to my mother, who is a PUMA. She used to watch only CNN (which would lead to many interesting discussion with her Fox News daughter). However, their bias has turned her to FNC.

Gee, I wrote a whole essay. But this is one area that I follow closely. For example, on one site, I have a NYT Death Watch. As I say there, if you think the NYT is good only for fish wrap or birdcage liner, then you are insulting dead fish and canary poop. You will get updates from me, if you wish, on items in the media.

[freethinker]

Hillary refers to herself as a progressive.

:)

[VotingHillary]

Agreed too. Noticed a huge increase in the numbers of members online in late August and into September. Assumed many of these new members were Republicans. Welcome but please remember we came together and to this Forum as Democrats supporting Hillary Clinton and we will continue our support of her again for 2012!

AMEN! HILLARY 2012!!!

[eyedoc333]

I agree that partisanship is a big issue (see my sig. line). The more respectful we are with one another, the better the discussions we will have. On my end, I try to avoid any descriptive terms that I wouldn't apply to my own relatives, even if I disagree with them.

[endodoc79]

There are real differences on the role of government between the traditional Democratic and Republican party platforms. The current focus of the forum- is Plan B- NObama- and so we now have a common goal. The forum is a great place to share information and strategies towards the goal. Murray and the moderators donate a lot of time and effort to ensure that the forum functions at the highest levels. I continue to learn a lot by participating.

[Pepper]

...and, rare for a scientist, I am adept at communication -- making the complex simple, but accurate.

Reminds me of Carl Sagan, making science more accessible for the masses. Good on you.
Thanks for your input on this forum. The MSM has been a thorn in the side of Democracy and our country in general this election season.

Muzza.....thanks so much for this thread. I am so happy to have discussions with Republicans but some have posted statements that are over the top for this forum, IMHO. I know you and our great mods are ever watchful for those rare occurences.

[AnnaB]

Thanks for keeping it real Muzza.

[Wyoming Dem]

We just all need to agree to hate HIM. End of discussion.

[Suzan]

You see, my father was a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist in 1968. My mother also wrote on newspapers (the second woman, and the first beat reporter, for the local city news). They were/are both elite, Eastern liberals (my dad died in 1997, my mom is currently a PUMA in Michigan.

They were both extreme liberals, bordering on anarchists. My mom burnt bras and was an original NOW member. My dad grew his hair long and drank with the coeds at the university he taught (after he left the newspaper).

However, when you read their work, it was all Who, What, Where Why When and How. Reporting, pure and simple. No opinion.

That all started changing with Watergate and Bernstein/Woodward. Then, every student wanted to do "investigations" and "change the world". This is the mind-set of the journalism student today. My dad was trying to fight this, but it was a losing battle.

I got into journalism through the back door. I have multiple science degrees and, rare for a scientist, I am adept at communication -- making the complex simple, but accurate. So, when my dad got me my first job, I got to do a lot of writing on scientific subjects -- because no other reporter could understand what was being explained. In fact, the reason I free lance, is that several member of the local scientific community don't trust their news to be reported accurate by anyone but myself.

As I see it, the news reporting today suffers from people wanted to inject their world views into their writing, and not report the facts or the undiluted opinions of others. Two of the areas that suffer the most are the science/technology news and the military reporting -- and these are areas that I feel news organizations should look got the scientists and ex-military and utilize them, not the weakly-educated journalism student.

The new media has got a watch on the legacy media, and more people are paying attention via the Internet and radio. It is my opinion that the relationship between the legacy media and the new media is best represented by the following graphic:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/dinosaur-images-130-resize.jpg

No, journalism is not dead. But it looks different. There are some solid reporters out there, Jake Tapper comes to mind. As does Britt Hume and Chris Wallace. However, it is in an ugly period of transition, and I think this is the time people will remember as being when the mask was fully ripped of the legacy media.

Getting back to my mother, who is a PUMA. She used to watch only CNN (which would lead to many interesting discussion with her Fox News daughter). However, their bias has turned her to FNC.

Gee, I wrote a whole essay. But this is one area that I follow closely. For example, on one site, I have a NYT Death Watch. As I say there, if you think the NYT is good only for fish wrap or birdcage liner, then you are insulting dead fish and canary poop. You will get updates from me, if you wish, on items in the media.
Thanks for your thoughts, Isis. I agree that journalism is changing. I may be over-simplifying, but the solution seems simple to me. I'd be a lot happier if the pundits and would-be opinion makers would simply announce themselves as such, instead of pretending to be neutral.

I dunno ... is that asking too much?

Thanks for the personal history too. Very intriguing!

[Palinfan]

The only thing that gives me pause here is the weird line when criticizing "Democrats" but not meaning you Democrats. So generally I try not to do it. If I do, I say "Obama supporters" or something similar, since I am talking about the people running the party at the moment, his campaign, and a fringe element of the party that supports him and seems to have no qualms about any tactics.

Yes - I think I'm guilty of this.
It's too easy to say "democrats" because we are used to lumping everyone together.
I usually try to use the term far left - angry left - or liberal to make a distinction.

But my definition of liberal may be different from others.
To me a liberal is someone who is so far to the left that they are out of touch with most americans - even most democrats.

But maybe it's a good idea not to use that term either.

[VotingHillary]

We just all need to agree to hate HIM. End of discussion.

No, Wy, not hate him...just make damn sure he doesn't win. Hate is a negative that will reduce any positive we are trying to achieve.

[Mallory]

I am glad to see this as I was beginning to think this had become a Republican / Palin forum. I am a Democrat who believes in the long-time principles and policies of the party. I will not vote for Obama but that doesn't mean that I am comfortable with the elevation of Palin to Hillary status by some. There are miles of difference between the two though both are women. I hope we can keep some reality here even though some of us will vote for McCain as an anti-Obama vote. I still am trying to decide between McCain and the Green party versus no vote for president but yes on down-party Democrats.

Cricket, I know I am relatively new here, but I don't think anyone is elevating Sarah Palin to Hillary status. There are always things that you disagree with on every candidate... no candidate is perfectly in synch with everyones ideas (unless your an obot with no mind of your own). I actually had someone on another forum tonight accuse me of supporting Hillary ONLY because she's a woman and they called me SHALLOW. SO I told them WHY I supported Hillary and WHY I'm supporting McCain. McCain is a World closer to Hillary than Obama will ever be.

At any rate... I do have a friend who is voting for Chuck Baldwin of I believe, the Consitution party. I think it's a throw away vote because Baldwin and McKinney and Nadar don't have a chance. I would love to see a VIABLE third party so that people don't end up stuck in this kind of situation.. and with only two parties.. WHAT can we do?

Please think seriously about your Presidential vote. If Obama gains the White House, we will all be worse off in 4 years and it would be next to impossible for Hillary to run in 2012, no matter how badly his term goes. Even if it's as bad as I think it will be and the DNC suddenly wakes up "intelligent" one day and they don't let him run for a second term, the Democrat party will have no credibility.

This is a hard election.

[Charlie Brown]

Sorry if I've crossed the line in any way. I try to mostly keep my wrath for Obama (which is why I came here during research). I do admit being a bit more excited with McCain/Palin news than Hillary/Bill news, but I try to mostly keep most comments to myself (a few lapses that I'm very sorry for).

However, I respect the Clintons far more this election than a good chunk of the party. I think they have been treated unfairly and I realize they are now really trapped within Obama's control.

I don't think I've offended anyone on religion, gay rights (haven't mentioned it at all), etc... I did mention that I prefer the word "equalism" over "feminism", but I hope that wasn't out of line.

A few Vietnam/John Kerry comments popped up. I am sorry for that.

Unfortunately, this is by far the best forum (fortunately for you guys!) that is discussing all the media relating to this race. The few Republican places I've found are largely far behind in information.


John kerry...hahahaha...oh my that was good...No worries on that one im sure.....;)

[coyoterex]

As another of the newer conservative posters, I will also request that if I do something out of line or that offends someone, please, send me a PM or let me know. I am loving the intelligent dialogue here, and while I am sure that my thoughts and ideas will not always be agreed upon by some members, I think that the only way we can preserve our country and reach intelligent compromises is by being able to speak to each other.

[ezrider409]

I think it is good to remind all members that this is the Hillary Clinton Forum.

Whether we are conservatives, liberals, moderates, Greens, Independents etc... this excellent HCF allows us all to express ideas in a civil and respectful way. What I like best is that freedom of expression is welcomed
and not squashed like the new fascists would crush us all who oppose the O.

Thanks Muzza and other mods for hosting all guests in this 'freedom of expression forum'. The TRUE American way we ALL hope to keep and protect. MISSION ON!

[Isis46]

With humor and respect, I ask our Democratic forum friends remember one thing:

That the right-wing pundit Ann Coulter did, at one time, proclaim Hillary Clinton as "Our Girl". :D

[Adventure]

Not everyone on the far left supports Obama just an FYI. In fact, I think its rather offensive to call anyone who supports Obama far left. The kos types are fakes that want to be far left without knowing anything of what the far left actually believes.

Universal Health Care is a core left position. Obama is against that. That pretty much destroys the myth of Obama being left. In fact Hillary was the more progressive candidate which is what attracted me to Hillary over Obama. The problem with Obama people is they are loud mouths who don't know the issues. I don't like to see Hillary supporters act the same way. When people attack Obama I want to see them do it with facts and not ridiculous claims of being a communist or any other left term people want to use as slander.

I don't agree with Hillary on everything but I respect and like Hillary as a person. And I trusted Hillary. Obama is nothing but an egotistical elitist whom I don't trust. Obama puts himself above the party and I find that dangerous for the long term health of the so called left of center party over here.

[foxyladi]

This pretty much sums it up.

THANKS MUZZA
i always read everything you post
so far we are total agreement

[freethinker]

Not everyone on the far left supports Obama just an FYI. In fact, I think its rather offensive to call anyone who supports Obama far left. The kos types are fakes that want to be far left without knowing anything of what the far left actually believes.

Universal Health Care is a core left position. Obama is against that. That pretty much destroys the myth of Obama being left. In fact Hillary was the more progressive candidate which is what attracted me to Hillary over Obama. The problem with Obama people is they are loud mouths who don't know the issues. I don't like to see Hillary supporters act the same way. When people attack Obama I want to see them do it with facts and not ridiculous claims of being a communist or any other left term people want to use as slander.

I don't agree with Hillary on everything but I respect and like Hillary as a person. And I trusted Hillary. Obama is nothing but an egotistical elitist whom I don't trust. Obama puts himself above the party and I find that dangerous for the long term health of the so called left of center party over here.

This is very true. Obama's views do not fit neatly into a liberal box. Some of his views are very socialist, some are big business, some are globalist, some are very ultra conservative, fascist, some anti-American.

He is NOT the same as HRC at all.

[PALIN08HILL12]

I Agree With This As Well. I Even Though This Year I Am Going For Country Over Party And Voting Mccain B/c I Cant Stand Obama Personaly, Ethicaly, Moraly, Spiritualy, Physicaly And Emotionaly, I Am Still A Dem, Although At Times This Year I Was Ashamed To Be One, I Still Believe In There Agenda, But I Dont Believe The People Who Are Running The Show Right Now Have The True Dem Platform At Heart And Are Making Us Look Bad And Giving Us A Bad Name. I Am A Clintondem And Thats Why I Came Here. To Blog, Talk, Share And Gush Over My Dear Hillary B/c There Are So Many Hillary Bashers Out There Its Hard To Find A Place Like This. This Site Is Great, The Way We Can All Come Together, Lets Keep It That Way. I Like Sarah Alot But After Obamas Sweeping Lose To Mccain On Nov. The 4th :d I Believe Truley 2012 Its Gonna Be Palin Against Clinton And I Will Be Going The Distance For My Hill!

[ibginnie]

As another of the newer conservative posters, I will also request that if I do something out of line or that offends someone, please, send me a PM or let me know. I am loving the intelligent dialogue here, and while I am sure that my thoughts and ideas will not always be agreed upon by some members, I think that the only way we can preserve our country and reach intelligent compromises is by being able to speak to each other.


Ditto!

[Angelica91]

Finally, thanks Muzza!:D

I'm supporting McCain but if Hillary was the nominee I would absolutely be for HILLARY!!!!!!!!:D
Hillary is my heroine!;)

[Den2006]

I come here to listen an learn about people who I've found have much more in common with my views than I realized before. Middle Americans have much in common and the Party Wars have kept us appart. The extremes of both parties seem to drive the impression people get in the media view. I am a pro-life/pro-choice person, while I prefer life I also know it's the womans choice to make the determination either way. I want America strong, I want my fellow Americans safe and to prosper. I believe in hard work and self-reliance. I want all Americans to have the same opportunity for success that I have yet hold the individual responsible for the end result. As I read the posts on here I find that we have a lot in common.

[writerchick]

However, when you read their work, it was all Who, What, Where Why When and How. Reporting, pure and simple. No opinion.

That all started changing with Watergate and Bernstein/Woodward. Then, every student wanted to do "investigations" and "change the world". This is the mind-set of the journalism student today. My dad was trying to fight this, but it was a losing battle.

I think that after the election, journalism and media "reform" (if that's possible) will be a huge issue.

As you are well aware of, many of us who consider ourselves staunch Democrats were absolutely dumbfounded by the media bias this election and began watching FOX out of sheer desperation. While I know FOX also had motives to cover the Democratic primary race "objectively" - the fact remains they did.

But the larger issue of corporate owned media bias and a complete lack of any real investigative journalism is disturbing and increasingly harmful to the country.

My short analysis is it stems from the internet creating a warp speed of information (both true and false) - the news organizations are so focused on being competitive with the internet that they've thrown fact-checking and proper sourcing out the window. Now an internet report - even from a sleazy blog like Kos - are disseminated as "news". This would NEVER have happened 20-30 years ago when reporters took weeks or months to properly write a story.

I don't know what the solution is but it needs to be addressed immediately. The internet sources will be impossible to control, but the television networks are another matter. While free speech must be protected, if a network is claiming to report the "news", they better damn well report it objectively. Maybe it's stiff penalties for false reports, some sort of regulatory oversight committee or may it will be the birth of new "independent" news networks that the public will be drawn to, leaving the dinosaur networks of CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC behind.

[MS BLUEGRASS]

A few reminders...

Yes, it's great that this forum has befriended a few visitors from Republican sites and yes, you are welcome to join in the discussions here as there is some kind of shared agenda at this time. There have been many interesting & balanced discussions over the past few weeks.

BUT (referring to a very small minority of posters):

This is NOT the place to push Republican policies & viewpoints. Yes, many of the Hillary supporters here are opposed to Obama's candidacy and are willing to vote for McCain, but that does NOT mean many of these same supporters embrace Republican policies. Quite the opposite.

Personally, I don't support Barack Obama but I certainly do not support Republican policies either. Although I may not be supporting the Democratic Party nominee for 2008 that doesn't mean I am against the fundamental ideals of the Democratic Party. No, the opposite is true - I very much embrace the ideals of the Democratic Party - but not the people currently running that party. I am sure there are many others who feel the same way. It is possible to vote for McCain & disagree with Republican policies.

Ultimately this is a pro-Hillary Clinton forum. Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. Expressing views and support for policies which conflict greatly with the politics of Hillary Clinton will cause conflict here. Examples of unacceptable content includes anti-choice and anti-gay propaganda. Got it?

Thank you.

(Apologies to those Republican visitors for whom this message does not apply & who have respected that this is a Hillary Clinton forum - you can ignore the above post).

I agree!

[Horizon]

We are, at the end of the day,the HILLARY CLINTON FORUM! IMHO,this would also include Bill and Chelsea.While Hillary stands on her own as a candidate,she is a Clinton and I find any example of Clinton bashing repugnant.

[MS BLUEGRASS]

I think that after the election, journalism and media "reform" (if that's possible) will be a huge issue.

As you are well aware of, many of us who consider ourselves staunch Democrats were absolutely dumbfounded by the media bias this election and began watching FOX out of sheer desperation. While I know FOX also had motives to cover the Democratic primary race "objectively" - the fact remains they did.

But the larger issue of corporate owned media bias and a complete lack of any real investigative journalism is disturbing and increasingly harmful to the country.

My short analysis is it stems from the internet creating a warp speed of information (both true and false) - the news organizations are so focused on being competitive with the internet that they've thrown fact-checking and proper sourcing out the window. Now an internet report - even from a sleazy blog like Kos - are disseminated as "news". This would NEVER have happened 20-30 years ago when reporters took weeks or months to properly write a story.

I don't know what the solution is but it needs to be addressed immediately. The internet sources will be impossible to control, but the television networks are another matter. While free speech must be protected, if a network is claiming to report the "news", they better damn well report it objectively. Maybe it's stiff penalties for false reports, some sort of regulatory oversight committee or may it will be the birth of new "independent" news networks that the public will be drawn to, leaving the dinosaur networks of CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC behind.

From Wikipedia....

In the 109th Congress (2005-2007), Representative Maurice Hinchey (Democrat of New York) introduced legislation "to restore the Fairness Doctrine". H.R. 3302, also known as the "Media Ownership Reform Act of 2005" or MORA, had 16 co-sponsors in Congress.[21]


From Wikipedia.....


In the 110th Congress (2007-2009), no legislation to restore the Fairness Doctrine has been introduced.[citation needed] Senator Norm Coleman (Republican of Minnesota) proposed an amendment to a defense appropriations bill that forbade the FCC from "using any funds to adopt a fairness rule."[22] It was blocked, in part on grounds that "the amendment belonged in the Commerce Committee’s jurisdiction".

[Suzan]

I come here to listen an learn about people who I've found have much more in common with my views than I realized before. Middle Americans have much in common and the Party Wars have kept us appart. The extremes of both parties seem to drive the impression people get in the media view. I am a pro-life/pro-choice person, while I prefer life I also know it's the womans choice to make the determination either way. I want America strong, I want my fellow Americans safe and to prosper. I believe in hard work and self-reliance. I want all Americans to have the same opportunity for success that I have yet hold the individual responsible for the end result. As I read the posts on here I find that we have a lot in common.
Very insightful comment about the "Party Wars" keeping us apart. I agree! And if it weren't for forums like this, they might continue to succeed in that.

I wonder how afraid the parties--and the media--are of the moderates, centrists and independents in the country finding Common Ground and uniting. I'll bet they're shaking in their boots. Think how powerful we would be.

[pnevai]

Time for a bump

[Avalon]

If I say ultra left wing in relation to BHO, I am completely referring to his supporters and not anyone on this board or anyone else. I hope I have not said anything that was offensive. It is the extremes on both sides that cause problems. What I find on this site, are fellow patriotic Americans, we can all have different views about things, yet we share some very strong common viewpoints. We are able to talk to eachother and be respectful regardless of whether someone is conservative, moderate or liberal. How I wish we could carry out this kind of dialogue with the general population of America. It seems like so much of what we hear on the TV or radio represents one extreme or the other, it gives the illusion that we are all on one side or the other of these extremes. This is simply not true and it is wonderful to be able to express that online. There is still sanity out there and we don't have to agree on everything to like and respect eachother. I don't know any two people who share the exact same views on everything anyway.:) But certainly this is the Hillary Clinton forum and I don't think anyone on here would want to disrespect her!

[PumaResponders-com]

http://www.sarahpalinforum.org/[/url]

It does look like a very nice forum, but I couldn't find a link to register.

I wanted to post about some good resources:

www.palinrumors.com - debunking them, fun

http://clintondems.com/2008/09/obamasalinskys-community-organizing-about-power-many-articles/

tdo@turndownobama.com

[PumaResponders-com]

Very insightful comment about the "Party Wars" keeping us apart. I agree! And if it weren't for forums like this, they might continue to succeed in that.

I wonder how afraid the parties--and the media--are of the moderates, centrists and independents in the country finding Common Ground and uniting. I'll bet they're shaking in their boots. Think how powerful we would be.


I agree! And this might just be the year to bring us together: Hillary fans and Sarah fans!

[PumaResponders-com]

This is very true. Obama's views do not fit neatly into a liberal box. Some of his views are very socialist, some are big business, some are globalist, some are very ultra conservative, fascist, some anti-American.

He takes extreme positions and thinks that averages out to centrist or left moderate. But it doesn't reallly.

He got a 'liberal' voting record with extreme votes on abortion etc (and 'present') -- but on big money issues he changes the fine print to favor ... the big money interests. For example, last fall when Hillary was talking about a moratorium on foreclosures, he was dogwhistling about 'sanctity of contract.'

Imo in Chicago he was a tool of the Daley Machine disguised as a 'community organizer,' a placebo for the masses. Now he's been handed off to Washington to be a tool of Wall Street, a puppet in liberal's clothing.

(I assume it's okay to bash Obama here, and Chicago ... and Wall Street...? :-)

[CGP]

Seems like a reminder is required.

Please - to all "visitors" - general Democrat bashing is not welcome here. Yes, many Dems who use this forum oppose Obama's candidacy but that does not mean they all oppose the POLITICS & IDEALS of the Democratic Party. It's possible to support the ideals of the Democratic Party (not the leaders) and oppose the nominee of that party.

So, please, take all Dem bashing elsewhere. In particular, slamming Bill or Hillary Clinton is an extremely quick way to be shown the exit door.

Thank you.

[RachachaSharon]

Seems like a reminder is required.

Please - to all "visitors" - general Democrat bashing is not welcome here. Yes, many Dems who use this forum oppose Obama's candidacy but that does not mean they all oppose the POLITICS & IDEALS of the Democratic Party. It's possible to support the ideals of the Democratic Party (not the leaders) and oppose the nominee of that party.

So, please, take all Dem bashing elsewhere. In particular, slamming Bill or Hillary Clinton is an extremely quick way to be shown the exit door.

Thank you.

Thanks, Muzza. I think we need the occasional reminder.

[Horizon]

Seems like a reminder is required.

Please - to all "visitors" - general Democrat bashing is not welcome here. Yes, many Dems who use this forum oppose Obama's candidacy but that does not mean they all oppose the POLITICS & IDEALS of the Democratic Party. It's possible to support the ideals of the Democratic Party (not the leaders) and oppose the nominee of that party.

So, please, take all Dem bashing elsewhere. In particular, slamming Bill or Hillary Clinton is an extremely quick way to be shown the exit door.

Thank you.

Whoever was doing the Clinton bashing was extremely lucky I was not online to see that.Seriously.Big No No.

[BillDemo]

Bill and Hill should never be bashed on this Forum.

But IMO people should feel free to bash:
Harry Reid
Nancy Pelosi
Chuch Schumer
Barney Frank
John Kerry
Chris Dodd

[Irony!]

Muzza,

I have (however inadvertently, and out of ignorance about homosexuals) offended you once, but now, I know what not to say, etc., thanks to you helping me understand a little better.

As for the reality check, I am well aware that this is Hillary's house and I respect that. When the next election comes around, we will be standing on opposite side of the isle again. But thanks to your forum, I've gained some insight into normal democrats in general and what you stand for (country first) and because of that, I will be more respectful of my democrat opponents from now on. (Excluding Obots and any other extremists from either side of the isle.)

[Horizon]

Bill and Hill should never be bashed on this Forum.

But IMO people should feel free to bash:
Harry Reid
Nancy Pelosi
Chuch Schumer
Barney Frank
John Kerry
Chris Dodd

Good list.Bash on them all you can,we encourage it!!

[Ca Teacher]

Good list.Bash on them all you can,we encourage it!!

anyone who was against Hillary in this election is potentially on my list....

[evolin]

Hmmm, as frustrated as I am at times with this election, I probably don't always fit into Muzza's guidelines. I really appreciate the site, all the information shared, the general tone and aspirations promoted; however I also enjoy opinions from the other political party, the independents and the ones with no party at all.

As in the piece Muzza posted from the PUMA web site, I am 'out here alone' now, deserted by the Democratic party after the 62 years of being a Democratic member. Many of us feel we are between that "rock and a hard place."

Frankly I am not SURE I will vote for the down ticket. I would not want Obama to have a Democratic congress.
Hillary and Bill and MANY other democrats are out there stumping for Obama. I feel deserted and betrayed after donating bucks, time and energy to Hillary's campaign.

So although I would vote again for Hillary in a heartbeat, I do NOT have that choice. So I look at the programs on John McCain's web site...to see if they are tolerable for the next four years. I think many others need that information as they are also "between a rock and a hard place".

So although the trickle down theory that Republicans usually use on economics is not my "cup of tea", I need to look and evaluate to see if I can handle John McCain's programs for the next four years.

So I guess I do offend at times as I am pretty upset with the democratic? party.

[ZY123]

anyone who was against Hillary in this election is potentially on my list....

Not mine...I was told a few weeks ago to not support Dianne Feinstein who has been a great proponent/advocate for the State of CA. I'm certainly not going to go against what is best for this state and vote for a Republican who will not advocate for this state's best interests (IMO of course) because Feinstein is doing what she needs to do in regard to what she's saying election wise. I'll support candidates based on their proven record of experience. (Now Pelosi on the other hand sucks so she's on my list to get the hell outta there).

[Wyoming Dem]

No, Wy, not hate him...just make damn sure he doesn't win. Hate is a negative that will reduce any positive we are trying to achieve.
I was joking (at least a little!) Can I despise him? I would also like to get permission from Muzza to: Sneer at him, make rude gestures at him, make even ruder and vitriolic comments about/to him and to LOATH the DNC...I will of course try very hard to keep my Wyoming Cowboy attititude "G" rated but dang...sometimes it's tough. Nothing like a good old descriptive swear word (Optix is the language police...probably because she's a PUB!)

[Ca Teacher]

Not mine...I was told a few weeks ago to not support Dianne Feinstein who has been a great proponent/advocate for the State of CA. I'm certainly not going to go against what is best for this state and vote for a Republican who will not advocate for this state's best interests (IMO of course) because Feinstein is doing what she needs to do in regard to what she's saying election wise. I'll support candidates based on their proven record of experience. (Now Pelosi on the other hand sucks so she's on my list to get the hell outta there).

I said potentially on my list. I am going on a case by case basis. I also like Feinstein.

[kathleen]

anyone who was against Hillary in this election is potentially on my list....

Potentially? Naaa....they're DEFINATELY on my list! My personality won't allow any less. I'm a known eternal grudge holder. Once someone makes it on my crap list, it's impossible to redeem themselves so they never come off the list. No matter what they have to say, I can see nothing more than the betrayal.

[Ca Teacher]

I just wish I could wake up and realize the whole thing has been a big nightmare--andthat in fact Hillary is our nominee and we are on our way to victory...:mad:

[Wyoming Dem]

I just wish I could wake up and realize the whole thing has been a big nightmare--andthat in fact Hillary is our nominee and we are on our way to victory...:mad:
Where do we sign up for THAT kool-aid? (Maybe whiskey in sufficient quantities will do the trick...)

[Horizon]

Where do we sign up for THAT kool-aid? (Maybe whiskey in sufficient quantities will do the trick...)

LOL! See! That's why I drink so much now,everything is kinda o.k with a few glasses of wine on board.

[SantaCruzen]

I am a woman who is in the eyes of God the Allah or Almighty or Creator or Great Spirit or All There Is or Void also am a Veteran who was injured while serving on Active Duty in the Armed Forces, completed my Montgomery G.I. Bill graduating with a double major in Philosophy and Liberal Arts cume laude.

I was raised in the North Bay of San Francisco Bay Area in a Military Naval Submarine Base town wherein my family and extended family served in either the Navy, Marines or Civil Service during WWII and/or Korea and/or Vietnam. I am Very American.

I am a life long Democrat not because I believed in the Democratic Party but because I believed that the Republicans killed my cousin who died because he could not believe in himself when he had AIDS. Being raised in generations of Christianity, he could not feel peace in his own reality as being homosexual. I grew up seeing people die in San Franscisco and my Great Aunt - Cherokee/American - explaining to me that God was not punishing them as many people in our churches constantly stated. Being a Democrat was not the least of Evil. Being Democrat was about not joining Evil. I was rasied to believe that God Judges Us and No Human has the Right to Judge Our Heart. Being homosexual is not an identity crisis.

I turned down a National Security Clearance for Naval Satellite Weapons Targetting in May 1997 when I was told by the Navy that We Are Going to War in the Middle East. While I was waiting for my background check materials, I meditated on the issue of participating at that Security Clearance level. In my final analysis, I felt that the Ask Not Tell Not was not an assurance that if I became a Whistle Blower. If there was a situation in which I felt I needed to go up the chain of command, I might pay with my life as a homosexual. At that time, I could pay with a Court Martial for a Ten Year Sentence in Prison.

So, instead of serving my country as I would have done I felt that I would not re-join the Armed Forces. Albeit, I have served on a non-profit scientific research organization board of directors with retired intelligence agents for Free when they recruited me in May 2001. Thus, I served my country for no pay-no strings attatched.

I believe that if the Third Parties could Rise to the Occasion of Staking their Claim, that if PUMA parties could Rise to Refuting the Hypocrisies then the Two Party System can break through the state of War. We need a nation of people who do not want to hurt each other. It is time for Peace, Justice and Freedom for All.



P.S. You can check the fact that we were in heading to war, seeking Al Queda and Bin Laden in the nineties in the 911 Commission. I.e.;
According to the 911 Commission Report, President Clinton had been following Al Queda.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

President Bill Clinton's counterterrorism Presidential Decision Directives in 1995 (no. 39) and May 1998 (no. 62) reiterated that terrorism was a national security problem, not just a law enforcement issue. They reinforced the authority of the National Security Council (NSC) to coordinate domestic as well as foreign counterterrorism efforts, through Richard Clarke and his interagency Counterterrorism Security Group (CSG). Spotlighting new concerns about unconventional attacks, these directives assigned tasks to lead agencies but did not differentiate types of terrorist threats. Thus, while Clarke might prod or push agencies to act, what actually happened was usually decided at the State Department, the Pentagon, the CIA, or the Justice Department. The efforts of these agencies were sometimes energetic and sometimes effective. Terrorist plots were disrupted and individual terrorists were captured. But the United States did not, before 9/11, adopt as a clear strategic objective the elimination of al Qaeda.

[Wyoming Dem]

That someone could serve their country in the way you have and fear reprisal or even death, is a terrible epitaph for this country and what this country is supposed to stand for.

My brother is a photojournalist and he told me nearly a year before we went into Iraq that we were going. He was in Incirlik, Turkey and described to me all the logistical equipment and paraphenalia associated with a ground attack that was being off-loaded from American planes.

It is a terrible fact that the two-party system no longer represents more than 50% of the population. Anyone running as an Independent is just about doomed. I hope every single day that those of us who are fed up (PUMA JSND etc) can make a long-lasting difference and give American's a true voice. I thank you for your service to your country and on my behalf. Lets hope that one day we can include EVERYONE in the rights that Americans are guaranteed under the constitution.

[Still-a-Republican]

Hello all,
I have read allot of posts on this forum and if I may make an observation without offending anyone I think this forum is Centrist. The old Democrat Party that claimed to be left is now all but gone because the extreme elites have taken over the Party. The same exact thing happened to the Republican Party the elites like GWB and ranking members in Congress grew out of touch with their base essentially demoralizing them over issues like spending and immigration. This Country of ours is a Centrist Country and while the Right may be reaffirming itself with its base the hard left that has taken over the Democrat Party is permanently detaching itself from the common sense Democrat base that helped build it. I like to consider myself a common sense Republican and I very much enjoy hanging with the common sense Democrats that post on the forum.
Peace all! ;)

[Sandy in PA]

Hello all,
I have read allot of posts on this forum and if I may make an observation without offending anyone I think this forum is Centrist. The old Democrat Party that claimed to be left is now all but gone because the extreme elites have taken over the Party. The same exact thing happened to the Republican Party the elites like GWB and ranking members in Congress grew out of touch with their base essentially demoralizing them over issues like spending and immigration. This Country of ours is a Centrist Country and while the Right may be reaffirming itself with its base the hard left that has taken over the Democrat Party is permanently detaching itself from the common sense Democrat base that helped build it. I like to consider myself a common sense Republican and I very much enjoy hanging with the common sense Democrats that post on the forum.
Peace all! ;)

I have to agree with you there. I always thought we were smack dab in the middle here, not only with members from both parties (from the beginning), but in beliefs and values.

I think that's why I liked it here from the start. As an Independent, I felt right at home, and never felt like I had to be a Democrat because I was supporting Hillary, which was very different from what I found from the Democrats in my area. They assumed that I must be a Democrat, and were always shocked to find out that it was a temporary thing so I could vote in the PA primary, and has always been an Indie since I first registered to vote.

[hillarymyhero]

Yes, I respect your ideology, muzza

I am Hillary supporter,but, due to shameful behaviour of DNC...I am no more democrat...till Bill and Hillary will be back in white house.............till then I am all McCain/Palin....

[kpmom]

Hello all,
I have read allot of posts on this forum and if I may make an observation without offending anyone I think this forum is Centrist. The old Democrat Party that claimed to be left is now all but gone because the extreme elites have taken over the Party. The same exact thing happened to the Republican Party the elites like GWB and ranking members in Congress grew out of touch with their base essentially demoralizing them over issues like spending and immigration. This Country of ours is a Centrist Country and while the Right may be reaffirming itself with its base the hard left that has taken over the Democrat Party is permanently detaching itself from the common sense Democrat base that helped build it. I like to consider myself a common sense Republican and I very much enjoy hanging with the common sense Democrats that post on the forum.
Peace all! ;)

Well said. I look forward to the day when a viable 3rd party, The Centrist Party?, exists. I've become very disillutioned with the DNP this year.

[SantaCruzen]

Well said. I look forward to the day when a viable 3rd party, The Centrist Party?, exists. I've become very disillutioned with the DNP this year.

The Obama Coup book stated it all: the author stated that a fascist movement begins with a pretended grassroots movement that is funded by the elite.

[SantaCruzen]

Muzza: I guess it is time for me to come out of the closet. :D
I work as a free-lancer for a Fox News affiliate, and have close connections to some well known blog sites. I embedded myself here at the time of the Democrat connection, because I sensed that there was less "unity" than the legacy media was presenting. I was able to provide some of the PUMA reports to my media sources at that time, and will continue to do so, when it promotes your cause.


I had told my partner many times during the Primaries that there were some headlines that came out with my verbiage after I said it here on the forum. Now, I know there are journalists here for certain.:D

[NanCi1214]

You see, my father was a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist in 1968. My mother also wrote on newspapers (the second woman, and the first beat reporter, for the local city news). They were/are both elite, Eastern liberals (my dad died in 1997, my mom is currently a PUMA in Michigan.

They were both extreme liberals, bordering on anarchists. My mom burnt bras and was an original NOW member. My dad grew his hair long and drank with the coeds at the university he taught (after he left the newspaper).

However, when you read their work, it was all Who, What, Where Why When and How. Reporting, pure and simple. No opinion.

That all started changing with Watergate and Bernstein/Woodward. Then, every student wanted to do "investigations" and "change the world". This is the mind-set of the journalism student today. My dad was trying to fight this, but it was a losing battle.

I got into journalism through the back door. I have multiple science degrees and, rare for a scientist, I am adept at communication -- making the complex simple, but accurate. So, when my dad got me my first job, I got to do a lot of writing on scientific subjects -- because no other reporter could understand what was being explained. In fact, the reason I free lance, is that several member of the local scientific community don't trust their news to be reported accurate by anyone but myself.

As I see it, the news reporting today suffers from people wanted to inject their world views into their writing, and not report the facts or the undiluted opinions of others. Two of the areas that suffer the most are the science/technology news and the military reporting -- and these are areas that I feel news organizations should look got the scientists and ex-military and utilize them, not the weakly-educated journalism student.

The new media has got a watch on the legacy media, and more people are paying attention via the Internet and radio. It is my opinion that the relationship between the legacy media and the new media is best represented by the following graphic:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/dinosaur-images-130-resize.jpg

No, journalism is not dead. But it looks different. There are some solid reporters out there, Jake Tapper comes to mind. As does Britt Hume and Chris Wallace. However, it is in an ugly period of transition, and I think this is the time people will remember as being when the mask was fully ripped of the legacy media.

Getting back to my mother, who is a PUMA. She used to watch only CNN (which would lead to many interesting discussion with her Fox News daughter). However, their bias has turned her to FNC.

Gee, I wrote a whole essay. But this is one area that I follow closely. For example, on one site, I have a NYT Death Watch. As I say there, if you think the NYT is good only for fish wrap or birdcage liner, then you are insulting dead fish and canary poop. You will get updates from me, if you wish, on items in the media.
I tried to post a reply to this post but got bounced off for some reason. This is a great essay and I hope you will post more. Thank you.

[SantaCruzen]

I tried to post a reply to this post but got bounced off for some reason. This is a great essay and I hope you will post more. Thank you.

I think this thread stimulated a lot of excitement and people are posting to it. So,maybe that is why could not post. But sometimes my Internet Explorer does not allow me to submit. I do not know why. Probably Obots... hehehehehe-joking.

[NanCi1214]

You see, my father was a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist in 1968. My mother also wrote on newspapers (the second woman, and the first beat reporter, for the local city news). They were/are both elite, Eastern liberals (my dad died in 1997, my mom is currently a PUMA in Michigan.

They were both extreme liberals, bordering on anarchists. My mom burnt bras and was an original NOW member. My dad grew his hair long and drank with the coeds at the university he taught (after he left the newspaper).

However, when you read their work, it was all Who, What, Where Why When and How. Reporting, pure and simple. No opinion.

That all started changing with Watergate and Bernstein/Woodward. Then, every student wanted to do "investigations" and "change the world". This is the mind-set of the journalism student today. My dad was trying to fight this, but it was a losing battle.

I got into journalism through the back door. I have multiple science degrees and, rare for a scientist, I am adept at communication -- making the complex simple, but accurate. So, when my dad got me my first job, I got to do a lot of writing on scientific subjects -- because no other reporter could understand what was being explained. In fact, the reason I free lance, is that several member of the local scientific community don't trust their news to be reported accurate by anyone but myself.

As I see it, the news reporting today suffers from people wanted to inject their world views into their writing, and not report the facts or the undiluted opinions of others. Two of the areas that suffer the most are the science/technology news and the military reporting -- and these are areas that I feel news organizations should look got the scientists and ex-military and utilize them, not the weakly-educated journalism student.

The new media has got a watch on the legacy media, and more people are paying attention via the Internet and radio. It is my opinion that the relationship between the legacy media and the new media is best represented by the following graphic:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/dinosaur-images-130-resize.jpg

No, journalism is not dead. But it looks different. There are some solid reporters out there, Jake Tapper comes to mind. As does Britt Hume and Chris Wallace. However, it is in an ugly period of transition, and I think this is the time people will remember as being when the mask was fully ripped of the legacy media.

Getting back to my mother, who is a PUMA. She used to watch only CNN (which would lead to many interesting discussion with her Fox News daughter). However, their bias has turned her to FNC.

Gee, I wrote a whole essay. But this is one area that I follow closely. For example, on one site, I have a NYT Death Watch. As I say there, if you think the NYT is good only for fish wrap or birdcage liner, then you are insulting dead fish and canary poop. You will get updates from me, if you wish, on items in the media.

I think this thread stimulated a lot of excitement and people are posting to it. So,maybe that is why could not post. But sometimes my Internet Explorer does not allow me to submit. I do not know why. Probably Obots... hehehehehe-joking.

Thanks. I'll blame it on Obots!

[FlaDem]

Muzza, well said!

[CGP]

Time for a reminder.

[foxyladi]

Muzza, Thanks for the timely reminder.

reminders are a good thing.thanks MUZZA!!:D