How It Feels Being Trashed! Hillary, I relate!

[CGP]

In the months after Hillary ended her campaign & pledged "support" for Obama, many Hillary supporters in this forum would express anger at other Hillary supporters who criticized Hillary's willingess to "support" Obama. They would defend Hillary to the max and attempt to explain why she made the decisions she did, and why her principles had not been compromised. I was one such person who always defended her decision to "support" Obama because I believed that was the only way to ensure her political survival.

It's interesting, therefore, that some of these very same people that defended Hillary's decision to "support" Obama now feel totally comfortable trashing me to the max solely because I am attempting to open the forum up to a broader base of participants. Yes, many members have left this site simply because I wanted to be more INCLUSIVE - a noble goal one would have thought. And rather than attempting to UNDERSTAND the reasons why I have made this decision to be more NUETRUAL & INCLUSIVE and rather than DEFENDING me, these same people have TRASHED me.

How hypocritical & disappointing. I wish someone would defend me! I am a nobody, just an everyday person, but in some ways I now know what Hillary must have felt like when some of her supporters TRASHED her for making a choice they didn't agree with.

[short shrink]

Well Muzza, it has been said that no good deed goes unpunished. I'm sorry this is happening to you. :(

[Meg]

In the months after Hillary ended her campaign & pledged "support" for Obama, many Hillary supporters in this forum would express anger at other Hillary supporters who criticized Hillary's willingess to "support" Obama. They would defend Hillary to the max and attempt to explain why she made the decisions she did, and why her principles had not been compromised. I was one such person who always defended her decision to "support" Obama because I believed that was the only way to ensure her political survival.

It's interesting, therefore, that some of these very same people that defended Hillary's decision to "support" Obama now feel totally comfortable trashing me to the max solely because I am attempting to open the forum up to a broader base of participants. Yes, many members have left this site simply because I wanted to be more INCLUSIVE - a noble goal one would have thought. And rather than attempting to UNDERSTAND the reasons why I have made this decision to be more NUETRUAL & INCLUSIVE and rather than DEFENDING me, these same people have TRASHED me.

How hypocritical & disappointing. I wish someone would defend me! I am a nobody, just an everyday person, but in some ways I now know what Hillary must have felt like when some of her supporters TRASHED her for making a choice they didn't agree with.



Murray I know, it's sad that things have gotten this way.

I've tried to defend you and explain some things and it's the same comments over and over again.

Our defense is falling on deaf ears...:(

[Alessandro Machi]

My position is both forums can end up being allies. However, I noticed my mailbox size has been cut in half so now I can't send PM's.

[Eddie3dfx]

Considering 95% of Online Obama supporters are absolute drones, then I am not sure how it would benefit this forum.

[Bets1]

How hypocritical & disappointing. I wish someone would defend me! I am a nobody, just an everyday person, but in some ways I now know what Hillary must have felt like when some of her supporters TRASHED her for making a choice they didn't agree with.

I'm so sorry! :(

I understand what you are trying to do. I wish I could offer suggestions, but I have none. I think many of us are still hurting and having a difficult time 'letting-go'!

You have such a wonderful site here and I support what ever you decide to do. You have worked very hard to make your site so successful. I hope you can find a middle ground to please your supporters. Good luck and Bless you!

:)

[CGP]

My position is both forums can end up being allies. However, I noticed my mailbox size has been cut in half so now I can't send PM's.

I have fixed that.

[eyedoc333]

Murray, I've been trying to stay out of the drama (I get plenty of it on another website, where I'm an admin). Anyway, I am still here with you. I trust you to do what you think is best. Those who are unhappy with the changes will go elsewhere, while others will join once the registration re-opens. I'm interested to see what happens. I look on this as another chapter in the adventures of 2008.

Hang in there, kiddo.

[lanesharon]

This is your forum Murray. You have told us that over these last few days, as you made a 180 degree change to the format of the forum. So, people had a choice of staying or leaving. The fact that some have chosen to leave seems to have upset you a great deal, and you have personalized it. They have left because the format no longer serves their needs; pure and simple. It is not a statement against you personally.

You are an educated person and I would hope that you considered all of this before you made this change. The change is a personal one for you, which I am sure was upsetting to some of your volunteers who invested a great deal of their personal time working here to keep the forum going. There are also people who invested considerable donation money to keep the forum self supporting. If I had been one, I would have wondered why this decision was made without a 'group meeting' to discuss it.

Murray, this forum was functioning because of a group of people, not one individual. You did not keep it going without the help of many others. Yet, you made a unilateral decision without considering all of those who kept it going. Sorry, but I think they have a right to be a little upset.

[jdona]

I think the problem murray is people are once again left without a home and safe harbor. Maybe you had noble intentions but I think the move should have been more gradual. People have had enough shock, feelings are too raw. People need to grieve. But I also think you needed to realize that if people had not fallen in line after the primary, they certainly weren't going to right after the election. Maybe you did want to move on, go mainstream, restore some sanity, whatever your decision was based on. But the majority of people here just aren't ready. I wish you luck with your new vision for your life, I really do. I hope you will be happier and more relaxed. But for the rest of us, we are just too militant to go along with you. We aren't ready to make nice, and I suspect we never will be ready. Everyone has their own path to follow. For a lot of us, that path is just too vastly different than yours, and we are now headed in opposite directions. But I do wish you well.

[SoCal4Hillary]

I may not agree with, or understand, all of your decisions but I do defend your right to make those decisions. It's sad that you're being vilified for wanting to move forward, but I think that just speaks to the raw emotions many of us are still feeling right now.

[ScottVA]

Considering 95% of Online Obama supporters are absolute drones, then I am not sure how it would benefit this forum.

SO VERY TRUE! Nothing that NoBama did was ever seen for what it was......FRAUD/CHEATING/CHILDISH ANTICS by his supporters! There is NO WAY on God's green Earth that you're going to be able to have a forum allowing these people to come together with people where as galvanized as metal against them! It's like water and oil...

[CGP]

Murray, this forum was functioning because of a group of people, not one individual. You did not keep it going without the help of many others. Yet, you made a unilateral decision without considering all of those who kept it going. Sorry, but I think they have a right to be a little upset.

Sharon, this is not accurate. For WEEKS the FORUM has been discussing this very topic. Thread after thread about "where to next". Hundreds of members participated in those discussions. How is that not considering the thoughts/feelings of the "group"? I did not make a unilateral decision at all, I consulted the forum on mutiple occasions.

And that said, the forum is still closed to new registrations and people are still free to express the same ideas/feelings/thoughts they have always been able to so I don't understand why people are so "confused" about the new "format" as it's the same as it has always been...There has not been a 180 degree shift - such a shift would be if the forum became pro-obama 24/7 overnight and clearly it has NOT! And how can it when registration is closed?

[CGP]

I think the problem murray is people are once again left without a home and safe harbor. Maybe you had noble intentions but I think the move should have been more gradual. People have had enough shock, feelings are too raw. People need to grieve. But I also think you needed to realize that if people had not fallen in line after the primary, they certainly weren't going to right after the election. Maybe you did want to move on, go mainstream, restore some sanity, whatever your decision was based on. But the majority of people here just aren't ready. I wish you luck with your new vision for your life, I really do. I hope you will be happier and more relaxed. But for the rest of us, we are just too militant to go along with you. We aren't ready to make nice, and I suspect we never will be ready. Everyone has their own path to follow. For a lot of us, that path is just too vastly different than yours, and we are now headed in opposite directions. But I do wish you well.

Some nice comments thanks. But one major correction is required: No-one has been asked to "fall in line". Not a single time has that been asked of anyone.

[Qulin]

I very rarely post here. I knew this would happen. I cannot ever support Obama.

The thing is, it is your site, do what you want. Don't let people decide for you. Do what is right for you. Some will leave but others will join.

Hugs to you Murray.

[OkieforHRC2008]

Murray, I'll never be mad at you for this, but emotions are running high. I felt yanked directly into "you must accept this" land, and I'll admit I am not ready to do that. Do I wish the changes would have been more gradual? Of course I do, but you can't always get what you want. I don't know where this forum is going from here, but I had always hoped that we'd have at least something to go for. I'd love to see a movement to get gay marriage accepted or something worthwhile. I suppose I'll stick around and see what happens.

[LadyLazarus]

Can someone explain what you mean by this? What have I been missing? What thread is this "trashing" happening in? If this is true, then I am sorry.

I can only say that I have been reading posts on this site since last February and became a member shortly there after, but that I haven't posted frequently because this site seemed to be so myopically focused that any kind of dissent or straying from one party line was crushed by those who were so single-minded. As an academic, I am very wary of group-think on any topic, which is why Obamamania has always disturbed me, and that includes a blind loyalty to politicians, including Hillary. As an American, I believe strongly that dissent is often a critical tool for much-needed revision and that to speak one's opinion, especially when it's unpopular, is not only patriotic but our duties as Americans.

At any rate, I actually agree that it is important to open up the discussion to the free competition of ideas and allow debate. We learn from debating with others, not by simply all parroting each other. Frankly, I get bored with cheer-leading, me-too discussions. While I really do think it's important that this forum remain a place where Hillary supporters and others can come to vent or commiserate, we should welcome free debate so long as it remains civil. It's healthy.

So, I think this is absolutely fabulous that you opened up this forum.

[CGP]

because this site seemed to be so myopically focused that any kind of dissent or straying from one party line was crushed by those who were so single-minded. As an academic, I am very wary of group-think on any topic, which is why Obamamania has always disturbed me, and that includes a blind loyalty to politicians, including Hillary.

You are correct. This is what happened at HCF from February to the election. There is no denying it. For quite some time now I have been wanting to see a braoder range of discussion on this forum, and a greater tolerance of those who hold a view that is different from the majority. Maybe now we will see more of that.

[ZY123]

I think people should be ashamed of themselves. It's one thing to move on....fine you don't like it. And having another forum...really as long as you're not stealing the member base here or trying to discredit this place...well if you were upfront and honest about it that's not that big of deal either. But to treat someone who was your friend and who sacrificed A LOT (and I mean a lot - as in their personal safety) as a pariah is disgusting. There's a line between disagreeing with the direction of this forum and treating an actual person badly...if someone's your friend (online or otherwise) treat them with and respect and kindness regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

So I think we all need to stop the "I'm leaving" announcements (I'm guilty of doing one of these based on emotions as well) and the site criticism and the calling Admin a Bot or a Taylor Marsh. Remember all he did during the primaries and even if you don't like what's going on now respect him for that.

[Les33]

I apologize for being on the critical side. I'm sure it's been horrific and you don't deserve it. I don't think people have been trashing YOU, though, or even your ideas for the Forum. I think the problem has been more about timing, and people being unable to deal with changes of any kind so soon after the election. As I read in someone else's comment, you seem to have removed yourself from the high level of investment some time ago, and perhaps weren't experiencing the same atmosphere of confusion and volatility on election night as many others were. It was just the timing, Murray. People needed the night to play out, and to reassure each other along the way, even falsely. It was a way to cope and connect, like lighting candles and all the other rituals that bolster people. Introducing newness at that time felt threatening, however noble the intention. But you couldn't have known that, since you weren't enmeshed in the confusion. You were simply proceeding with your course. So I'm very sorry for not defending you. And I have no intention of leaving the Forum.

[ZY123]

r. I'd love to see a movement to get gay marriage accepted or something worthwhile. .

This is actually a good idea...have people seen what's been going on in California for the last two days?

And I think this might be something old and new members could agree on.

[lanesharon]

Sharon, this is not accurate. For WEEKS the FORUM has been discussing this very topic. Thread after thread about "where to next". Hundreds of members participated in those discussions.


And, did the majority of the people who participated in those discussions agree to open up the forum and allow Obots in? I don't recall that being agreed to, but that is what happened. Was that a group decision or a unilateral decision? Granted, now the registration is closed, but there were some pretty negative Obots allowed in prior to that.

We were still reeling from the fact that a President-elect who had used sexism, mysogyny, voter corruption, and some pretty shady things to beat his opponents had actually achieved his goal, regardless of our best efforts to stop those illegal actions. We spent months of our lives fighting this injustice. And, the next day we woke up to having some of those who were responsible for helping him to do that in our 'living room', gloating about it. I highly doubt if the majority of the forum participants would okay this.

I know you may think I am being argumentative, or 'picking on you', but I am not. I am just one of the few outspoken ones left here to carry the flag for those who have already been 'driven out'. That is sad, because those members were the ones who participated, worked, organized, donated, and even moderated. I know that you are feeling 'slighted' right now Murray, but maybe you can detach yourself enough from your own hurt feelings to consider the feelings of all of those members.

[CGP]

This is actually a good idea...have people seen what's been going on in California for the last two days?

And I think this might be something old and new members could agree on.

Maybe that's what I like about www.commongroundpolitics.net

Excluding people from the institution of marriage is an issue which affects EVERYONE. The common ground is that we should not accept institutional discrimination against any minority.

Perhaps Common Ground Politics could be a place to express views and action ideas about a range of issues which affect everyone - and finding a common ground to act upon, regardless of political affiliation.

[CGP]

And, did the majority of the people who participated in those discussions agree to open up the forum and allow Obots in? I don't recall that being agreed to, but that is what happened. Was that a group decision or a unilateral decision? Granted, now the registration is closed, but there were some pretty negative Obots allowed in prior to.

What you are not acknowledging is that for most of the time this forum has been operational the registration system was OPEN and "Obots" were able to join at any time. And when the forum was re-opened after the election for a few hours, only a few trolls joined, the rest were Republicans. And the few trolls who caused a bit of drama were suspended. So yes, it probably wasn't wise to re-open rego at that time, but it was also a statement that the election was OVER. All in all, I saw more TROLLS posting in this forum in the months during Hillary's campaign than I did in here the day after the election!

I think many people are very upset over the election result and the forum is a convenient scapegoat. I can't help it that Obama won - certainly not my fault! I wish it was Hillary who won. But this is the reality.

[mkreyns]

Some nice comments thanks. But one major correction is required: No-one has been asked to "fall in line". Not a single time has that been asked of anyone.


This has been an emotional roller coaster for everyone and I still do not think it is all over. I can never support Obama for all I know about him and what he did, but it seems that in society the same things are going on. Those who are totally shocked by the outcome of this election. I just think everyone is emotional. After Hillary suspended her campaign in June, I grieved then and decided that if she did not get the nomination in Aug., then Obama would probably win with the tactics that were used. It still was very depressing. It is like you know when someone is going to die, but it never really sets in until they are gone. I think you and most all of us need time to sort out our emotions. That said, I think there will be many more surprises to come, and I have had a difficult time weathering the storm including with personal difficulties.

Take time to heal and think straight again. This has been a difficult emotional year.

[ZY123]

Maybe that's what I like about www.commongroundpolitics.net

Excluding people from the institution of marriage is an issue which affects EVERYONE. The common ground is that we should not accept institutional discrimination against any minority.

Perhaps Common Ground Politics could be a place to express views and action ideas about a range of issues which affect everyone - and finding a common ground to act upon, regardless of political affiliation.

I think focusing on issues is good rather than candidates. It's never good to rally around a person (or against a person). It's better to rally for or against issues....things like: gay marriage, media bias, women in politics....I think you could get a range of people participating in that (regardless of political affiliation).

[Meg]

I think focusing on issues is good rather than candidates. It's never good to rally around a person (or against a person). It's better to rally for or against issues....things like: gay marriage, media bias, women in politics....I think you could get a range of people participating in that (regardless of political affiliation).


More people, more understanding of issues from different perspectives.

Today has been rather calm, so obviously everythings not so bad.;)

[CGP]

I think focusing on issues is good rather than candidates. It's never good to rally around a person (or against a person). It's better to rally for or against issues....things like: gay marriage, media bias, women in politics....I think you could get a range of people participating in that (regardless of political affiliation).

Yes, yes, yes.

Rallying behind a person, as I have learned in 2008, is rarely healthy - be it Hillary or Obama or anyone for that matter. People are people. They are not Gods (for those who subscribe to the concept of Gods, as not all do) & should not be worshipped as such.

[Alessandro Machi]

My position is both forums can end up being allies. However, I noticed my mailbox size has been cut in half so now I can't send PM's.

Whew, I thought you were mad at me.

[CGP]

It's better to rally for or against issues....things like: gay marriage, media bias, women in politics....I think you could get a range of people participating in that (regardless of political affiliation).

I am liking this idea.

It would bring a constructive focus to the forum & facilitate "calls to action". Action-oriented forums are much more sustainable & stimulating.

So again, Common Ground Politics would seem like a good fit.

Fighting for various issues/rights/goals, always involves "politics" - so that part of the name is appropriate.

And in order to agree & make progress, a certain "common ground" needs to be found so that compromise can be achieved. Routinely alligning oneself with party policies or a candidate's viewpoints does not facilitate such a process.

[Anyone but Obama]

I'm sorry this is happening to you.

I've run forums before including one of my own for a hobby. Being an admin is a thankless job. I feel for you, I really do. People will come and go and you cannot please everyone. I've seen many forum meltdowns.

Best is to do what you think it right and what you want. This is not your life, but a hobby so I would run it how it makes YOU happy and what you can gain from it. There is no point on overseeing a place that you are not happy with or is a downer every time you log in.

To be frank, I think your forum was overtaken by a couple of moderators with their own ideals and rules. Well now they have their own little place so they can sit around and agree with everything 100% STAMP! and not be bothered by Obots or those with differing opinions. What a great place to agree with yourself and carbon copies of yourself. I like a debate meself. If I wanted people to kiss my ass or stamp everything I say or have little peons following me around saying they agree with everything I type, well, I su'ppose I could go over to DU. :-)

This is your forum and you pay the bills. You created something and people came. They will come again. Trust.

[LadyLazarus]

I think focusing on issues is good rather than candidates. It's never good to rally around a person (or against a person). It's better to rally for or against issues....things like: gay marriage, media bias, women in politics....I think you could get a range of people participating in that (regardless of political affiliation).

I completely agree.

I should also say that I have enjoyed reading the posts regarding the issue of Hillary being a sell-out. Since June I have been wrestling with this very question. I have respected and admired Hillary Clinton over a decade now. When I found out she was going to be running for the Presidency, I cannot describe the feeling of absolute joy that ran through me. I envisioned a utopian world where someone as intelligent, competent, and compassionate as Hillary was running one of the most powerful nations in the world. And it made me smile and believe that the world was not such a terrible place. Then Obama came and that smile quickly left my face. As someone who has studied African American literature for most of my career, I was very torn about his decision to run at this moment in history, especially knowing that he had so many more years to gain the critical experience he needed to truly be presidential material. Since that time, I have come to question his integrity as a politician and his motives. Knowing how the struggle for suffrage for African-American males eclipsed and delayed ALL women’s suffrage some 50 or more years, I realized with horrific irony that this scenario was repeating itself all over again. Because most young women do not know women’s history, they have condemned themselves to repeat it .

Yet how was I supposed to take Hillary’s supporting Obama after all we went through? After I spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of my time trying to get her elected, what was I to make of her suddenly campaigning for him and holding fundraisers for him? My sister quickly decided that she no longer respected Hillary and that her actions were not those of a true feminist. I faltered because I really did understand what Hillary had sacrificed to keeping fighting for us. I thought of how she got herself into debt and subjected herself to the ridicule of the world to keep fighting for us. How could she then just quit? But as many have said, Hillary is almost always placed in a situation where she will lose either way. She is vilified for staying the course and vilified for quitting. I get that, but these questions have been in my mind for months now. I am still thinking through them and processing them. And all I can say is that I think the issue is way more complex, as it usually is, than my sister made it out to be. I don’t think we can say she sold us out, but I also don’t believe that I can believe in her as a politician as I once did. This doesn’t mean that I don’t respect her; it means that I really see just how human she really is. And that’s not a bad thing :)

[lanesharon]

This is your forum and you pay the bills.

No, some of those same people helped to pay the bills.

[CGP]

I completely agree.

I should also say that I have enjoyed reading the posts regarding the issue of Hillary being a sell-out. Since June I have been wrestling with this very question. I have respected and admired Hillary Clinton over a decade now. When I found out she was going to be running for the Presidency, I cannot describe the feeling of absolute joy that ran through me. I envisioned a utopian world where someone as intelligent, competent, and compassionate as Hillary was running one of the most powerful nations in the world. And it made me smile and believe that the world was not such a terrible place. Then Obama came and that smile quickly left my face. As someone who has studied African American literature for most of my career, I was very torn about his decision to run at this moment in history, especially knowing that he had so many more years to gain the critical experience he needed to truly be presidential material. Since that time, I have come to question his integrity as a politician and his motives. Knowing how the struggle for suffrage for African-American males eclipsed and delayed ALL women’s suffrage some 50 or more years, I realized with horrific irony that this scenario was repeating itself all over again. Because most young women do not know women’s history, they have condemned themselves to repeat it .

Yet how was I supposed to take Hillary’s supporting Obama after all we went through? After I spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of my time trying to get her elected, what was I to make of her suddenly campaigning for him and holding fundraisers for him? My sister quickly decided that she no longer respected Hillary and that her actions were not those of a true feminist. I faltered because I really did understand what Hillary had sacrificed to keeping fighting for us. I thought of how she got herself into debt and subjected herself to the ridicule of the world to keep fighting for us. How could she then just quit? But as many have said, Hillary is almost always placed in a situation where she will lose either way. She is vilified for staying the course and vilified for quitting. I get that, but these questions have been in my mind for months now. I am still thinking through them and processing them. And all I can say is that I think the issue is way more complex, as it usually is, than my sister made it out to be. I don’t think we can say she sold us out, but I also don’t believe that I can believe in her as a politician as I once did. This doesn’t mean that I don’t respect her; it means that I really see just how human she really is. And that’s not a bad thing :)

Great insights & very interesting to read your views.

Please post more often!

[CGP]

No, some of those same people helped to pay the bills.

Yes, absolutely. And thank you to every single person who has helped keep this forum operational.

The forum could not exist without the generosity of those who have donated to cover the huge server costs.

At the same time, however, if people donate but expect something in return they are sure to feel a certain disappointment if decisions are made which they do not like.

I wish I had a dollar for the number of times I have read comments from people both here and elsehwere saying "I donated all this money to Hillary's campaign and she quit on us". If people voluntarily contribute to a cause they ultimately have to accept the decisions made by the group/candidate they are supporting. The same applies to this forum.

[cynthia2]

I really think that this was a safe harbor for people. I understand your intention for moving the forum to a different focus, but Murray, you did it the NEXT DAY. I for one, am still depressed over the election. I think people needed to still have their safe harbor for a week, where they could vent and commiserate together. Then you could have shut the forum down for a day and re-opened it with sections devoted to different viewpoints and a section for political differences to be hashed out or discussed. It's not what you are trying to do (IMHO) that caused difficulty - it's how fast you did it. While you have been talking about doing this for some time, most of us were still focused on McCain winning (or Obama losing if someone wasn't voting McCain). And the very next day after the election, I don't think any of us were ready to be "inclusive". There is a necessary "lick one's wounds" period that is just how humans, as emotional beings worked. I just really think you, Murray, had come to grips with an Obama win quicker than most.

Right now Obama supporters generally, want to celebrate, the "Bots" want to gloat and the opposition party needs to come to terms with the loss. Once reality sets in to all groups, people wil be ready to "get along". I just don't think people are there yet. JMHO

You are much appreciated and the forum is much appreciated. Thank you for all your hard work.

[CGP]

I just really think you, Murray, had come to grips with an Obama win quicker than most.

This is very true. I accepted a long time ago he was going to win. The writing was on the wall, but many refused to believe it. My opposition to his candidacy remained, but I stopped feeling distressed about what was clearly going to happen.

[GingforWomen]

I am one of the ones that was able to register after months of reading here. I developed great admiration for all of you and I hope all can work this out. Every other political board that I visited was full of hate and fighting. This forum was the only one that was positive and action driven. Sorry, I miss that !

[ZY123]

I'm sorry this is happening to you.

I've run forums before including one of my own for a hobby. Being an admin is a thankless job. I feel for you, I really do. People will come and go and you cannot please everyone. I've seen many forum meltdowns.

Best is to do what you think it right and what you want. This is not your life, but a hobby so I would run it how it makes YOU happy and what you can gain from it. There is no point on overseeing a place that you are not happy with or is a downer every time you log in.

To be frank, I think your forum was overtaken by a couple of moderators with their own ideals and rules. ......

This is your forum. You created something and people came. They will come again. Trust.

I agree with some of this as well....anyone treating you badly was never your friend in the first place....do what's right for you and what you believe in. Whether I agree with it or not I'll respect it.

If you build it they will come...plus if you make it totally issues based and not focused on candidates at all...then the main issue causing the fighting here is gone.

[CGP]

if you make it totally issues based and not focused on candidates at all...then the main issue causing the fighting here is gone.

Very true.

[Ijane]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Lazarus View Post
because this site seemed to be so myopically focused that any kind of dissent or straying from one party line was crushed by those who were so single-minded. As an academic, I am very wary of group-think on any topic, which is why Obamamania has always disturbed me, and that includes a blind loyalty to politicians, including Hillary.

You are correct. This is what happened at HCF from February to the election. There is no denying it. For quite some time now I have been wanting to see a braoder range of discussion on this forum, and a greater tolerance of those who hold a view that is different from the majority. Maybe now we will see more of that.

Group think isn't always wrong!! It serves a purpose. From February to the Denver convention this forum's 'group think' purpose was dedicated to getting Hillary Clinton, our chosen candidate elected. There should be no apologies for that! We worked hard!

In the process of working to get our candidate elected we uncovered an overwhelming amount of information about her opponent, Barack Obama. Information that no one in America heard about or would be allowed to hear about thanks to our treasonous MSM. What we learned about Barack Obama over the last 9 months was scandalous and many of us if not most of us felt/feel that Obama is a risk to our country. That risk that the members of this forum feel doesn't go away because he gets elected. It actually gets worse because now we are on the verge of realizing the nightmare instead of just studying it!! Why in the world would we move on? We were proactive trying to get Hillary elected and then we became proactive trying to defeat obama and now we have to be proactive to ensure that this loon for a president doesn't crash our economy, conscript our children, reinstate the draft, change and rearrange our constitution...you know, crazy things like that!!

Group think didn't help us get Hillary elected and it didn't keep obama from being elected but it did make many of us aware of our government and politicians and corruption, sexism and media bias. We're now activists and we're not going backwards ever again! We're still on a mission, Murray!

In the months after Hillary ended her campaign & pledged "support" for Obama, many Hillary supporters in this forum would express anger at other Hillary supporters who criticized Hillary's willingess to "support" Obama. They would defend Hillary to the max and attempt to explain why she made the decisions she did, and why her principles had not been compromised. I was one such person who always defended her decision to "support" Obama because I believed that was the only way to ensure her political survival.


What Hillary did was follow the flow of the majority of her supporters who were Democrats that vote with their party. I didn't like her decision because this forum taught me the importance of country first-party second, so for me it was about principal and integrity. However, I understand why she supported obama. Hillary was elected to work for the needs of the majority of her supporters and that's what she did. Did you do that? Did you base your decision on the needs of the majority?

[CGP]

However, I understand why she supported obama. Hillary was elected to work for the needs of the majority of her supporters and that's what she did. Did you do that? Did you base your decision on the needs of the majority?

I don't think it's possible to know the answer to this question. The reason being that the membership & viewership of the forum has alwas been in a state of flux. So while it may seem that there was a majority opinion, you are not taking into account the many members who LEFT the forum when Hillary decided to support Obama. In the months between June to October, such a supporter wasn't going to have much hope of finding support for their views in this forum, so such members LEFT.

The myth of the "majority opinion" is part of the problem here. It is absolutely the case that the forum shaped the development of a seemingly dominant view solely to help effect a particular outcome. That doesn't mean that actually was the dominant view of every single member who registered at this forum or her viewed the threads - although it could have been...

Oh, and I wasn't "elected" by anyone so to whom am I obliged to answer to?

[hobbitt]

I can't help it that Obama won - certainly not my fault!


Oh yeah? Let me see your finger. Purple dye there? Did you actually vote? How do we know that you are really Murray and not Helen Twelvetrees in disguise?? :D


Seriously, I do agree with Talyn. We are good at getting the word out. We do have all of those wondrous resources. And we do share positions on a couple of issues - like getting rid of the caucus system, getting the media to toe the line, getting Brazile into cement shoes, holding our senators and representatives to some basic ethical standards....

All of this energy, this knowledge and experience should not go to waste.

Perhaps one Room's threads should be reserved for activism, (calls for bloggers, emails, calls, and information), and other sub-forums to be designated for policy discussions. With the proviso that everyone is on their honor: if the room says "I Love Palin" no Palin detractors should enter; if "Hillary Forever" no one who feels disappointed or betrayed or miffed should set foot in there; likewise, if the room says "I Drank the Kool-Aid" I will stay far away. If the room topic is "Military Veteran Benefit discussion" and you are a peacenik, don't go in. If "How To Run for Local Office" and you would rather suck on a scorpion than run for office, stay the hell out of there.

If the discussion is probably going to make you mad, stay away. Simple.

And something for those who wish to just comment generally - on life as we know it, on what your personal opinion of Tom Brokaw is, or how the election affected you personally. And someplace to ask questions. And someplace for the Bump'ers of the world to Bump to their hearts' content. "Bumpus Room"

Let those people who want to work for -- or against something -- and not have to wade through lots of messages which are opinion pieces or rumor or gossip, have a room to themselves. And those who like the give-and-take have rooms where they can, um, give-and-take.



* (I refrained from adding "inane" or "what-if" or "time-wasting" to that sentence. And I am proud of my momentary restraint. But not all that successful at it.)

[G4Hillary]

The bottom line here Murray is that you have done a superb job for 10 months straight now. This forum has increasingly surpassed my expectations and I believe the credit goes you. This has been the townhall for all the displaced Democrats, PUMA, and all of our supporters. This platform was created and maintained by you with diligent care and tremendous effort. Everyone is proud of you and extremely thankful. To believe anything else would be false.

Turning the page is never easy but the future is always more important than the past. This forum has gained its vast richness from its loyalist members who have not only joined but contributed with their time, mind, and heart. There will always be some debate and deliberation between you and your base supporters that are disenfranchised Democrats, Moderate Republicans, and all PUMA of any or no affiliation. I think it is important that we build a bridge forward so that the most ardent and devout at HCF are given their just due as well as transitioning comfortably, patiently and more naturally towards the future.

What you have on your hands is a long term movement like the one that began with the advent of Moveon.org. This national constituency has shown its aspirations to rise to national prominence and take back the Democratic party. What you are seeing here is not an end to campaign, but a beginning of a serious alternative and growing movement. You have been placed prominently by the virtue of your earlier involvement and leadership as a revered guide and facilitator. You have been thrust into this role because of the faith the HCF loyalists and PUMA movement grassroots have in you.

[Ijane]

I don't think it's possible to know the answer to this question. The reason being that the membership & viewership of the forum has alwas been in a state of flux. So while it may seem that there was a majority opinion, you are not taking into account the many members who LEFT the forum when Hillary decided to support Obama. In the months between June to October, such a supporter wasn't going to have much hope of finding support for their views in this forum, so such members LEFT.

The myth of the "majority opinion" is part of the problem here. It is absolutely the case that the forum shaped the development of a seemingly dominant view solely to help effect a particular outcome. That doesn't mean that actually was the dominant view of every single member who registered at this forum or her viewed the threads - although it could have been...

Oh, and I wasn't "elected" by anyone so to whom am I obliged to answer to?

Of course it's possible to know the answer to this question. Obviously a majority wouldn't be relative to the membership number but rather the majority of members who have been contributing on an ongoing basis.

Oh, and I wasn't "elected" by anyone so to whom am I obliged to answer to?

That's correct. You weren't elected, you were selected by a lot of really great people who worked along with you to build this forum. I suppose those are the people you're obliged to answer to.

[LadyLazarus]

Group think isn't always wrong!! It serves a purpose. From February to the Denver convention this forum's 'group think' purpose was dedicated to getting Hillary Clinton, our chosen candidate elected. There should be no apologies for that! We worked hard!

In many ways I completely agree. I think unity on issues is critical for any activist movement and think this site was a wonderful hub of activism for Hillary etc. I myself learned about and participated in many campaigns that were run through this site.

But I would separate unity of action from group-think. The former evokes dedication to purpose the latter evokes fanaticism. I think what scared me was that it began to feel like there was just no tolerance for diversity of opinion here. For example, one person might write in that they weren’t going to vote for McCain and then that person would be flamed by multiple posters on the board. Shortly thereafter that person would be accused of being a “troll.” It was as if there was only one way to be a Hillary supporter and anything less than this made you suspect.

Then I saw people accusing others of being “marxist” or “socialist” etc. Not that I’m a big proponent of either, but the idea of demonizing socialism, as they did during the Red Scare in this country in which hundreds of U.S. citizen were denied basic rights, should give us all reason enough to pause.

Anyway, I hope this post makes sense and that you see that for the most part I agree with you.

[CGP]

I think what scared me was that it began to feel like there was just no tolerance for diversity of opinion here. For example, one person might write in that they weren’t going to vote for McCain and then that person would be flamed by multiple posters on the board. Shortly thereafter that person would be accused of being a “troll.” It was as if there was only one way to be a Hillary supporter and anything less than this made you suspect.

Yes, the above did occur, unfortunately. Further evidence of this is the "outrage" many have expressed since I started talking about opening the forum up to a wider range of participants & expression of views.



Then I saw people accusing others of being “marxist” or “socialist” etc. Not that I’m a big proponent of either, but the idea of demonizing socialism, as they did during the Red Scare in this country in which hundreds of U.S. citizen were denied basic rights, should give us all reason enough to pause.



And I agree with this statement.

[RE:]

Oh yeah? Let me see your finger. Purple dye there? Did you actually vote? How do we know that you are really Murray and not Helen Twelvetrees in disguise?? :D


Seriously, I do agree with Talyn. We are good at getting the word out. We do have all of those wondrous resources. And we do share positions on a couple of issues - like getting rid of the caucus system, getting the media to toe the line, getting Brazile into cement shoes, holding our senators and representatives to some basic ethical standards....

All of this energy, this knowledge and experience should not go to waste.

Perhaps one Room's threads should be reserved for activism, (calls for bloggers, emails, calls, and information), and other sub-forums to be designated for policy discussions. With the proviso that everyone is on their honor: if the room says "I Love Palin" no Palin detractors should enter; if "Hillary Forever" no one who feels disappointed or betrayed or miffed should set foot in there; likewise, if the room says "I Drank the Kool-Aid" I will stay far away. If the room topic is "Military Veteran Benefit discussion" and you are a peacenik, don't go in. If "How To Run for Local Office" and you would rather suck on a scorpion than run for office, stay the hell out of there.

If the discussion is probably going to make you mad, stay away. Simple.

And something for those who wish to just comment generally - on life as we know it, on what your personal opinion of Tom Brokaw is, or how the election affected you personally. And someplace to ask questions. And someplace for the Bump'ers of the world to Bump to their hearts' content. "Bumpus Room"

Let those people who want to work for -- or against something -- and not have to wade through lots of messages which are opinion pieces or rumor or gossip, have a room to themselves. And those who like the give-and-take have rooms where they can, um, give-and-take.



* (I refrained from adding "inane" or "what-if" or "time-wasting" to that sentence. And I am proud of my momentary restraint. But not all that successful at it.)You have my stamp of approval, hobbitt and I too thought this would be perfect for this forum...BUT, and there is always a BUT...The direction that Murray has proposed does not work with this structure. If I'm not mistaken, the direction forward is to debate with differant minded people. There would be no debating and there would be a bunch of stamping going on with the idea you propose, which, I Rebecca, don't mind one bit. I didn't join this forum to 'debate' people. I'm not good at it and don't really care to do it. I do enjoy reading others viewpoints...but don't like to be very confrontational. I hope I explained myself...:o

EDIT: I may question what you do sometimes Murray, but I would not trash you!:)

[Ijane]

Do you mind me asking what exactly you are doing to ensure Barack Obama isn't going to destroy this country, crash the economy, reinstate the draft, conscript your children and change the constitution.

I'm asking really.

Complaining on a message board isn't action. What are you doing that is productive? Blaming Admin for not giving you a playground to vent, bitch and complain is just so wrong. If you offered concrete and pro-active organizational efforts to actually work to get things done, he would probably give you space to do so. All I saw here for 5 months is complaining.

Plus, we should work with our leaders like Hillary to make sure Obama runs a successful Presidency and fulfills our wishes and policies. Action starts in the streets and face to face, not by typing anger on a board.

Good luck.

No you may not ask me. Anyone who can ask a member of this forum that question has not been paying attention and does not deserve an answer.

[CGP]

Obviously a majority wouldn't be relative to the membership number but rather the majority of members who have been contributing on an ongoing basis.




No, not necessarily & that is my point. Everyone knows that admin/mods were pretty quick to hit the suspend button if a member expressed a view which was "problematic" to the group cause. That's not a secret - that's public knowledge! So, the forum SHAPED the expression of a particular viewpoint which may not have accurately reflected all of the people who wanted to post or who read the forum.

[Karen Keefe]

You're a leader, Murray, even in this inclusive, democratic forum, just like Hillary is. I'm almost finished fuming about Hillary supporting Obama and agreed with Dr. Lynette's post that Hillary stumping for Obama gave him the win vs. Hillary going for the floor fight in Denver, which I believe would have given her the win. I am also almost finished feeling ticked off at your decision to let BO supporters here, and suggested we wait a month or two on that and develop our principles first, plus have more processing time.

Now, after reading Uppity Woman's incisive blog on "Which Woman do we Blame Now", titled paraphrased at noquarterusa.net, I'm feeling guilty for being mad at Hillary. I hold Hillary, my leader for so long, to a higher standard than I hold myself, so I partially "blamed" her for McCain's loss, which to me was her loss. Then I read Uppity Woman's post at Lalrry Johnson's excellent No Quarter site, and got just the kick in the head I needed. I wasn't in Denver to urge Hillary to fight for the nom--I have no idea what those days were like. I was here, safely at home, free from the abuse Hillary for decades and Sarah for at least a couple of years have endured just because of their gender. Until Hillary and I have a nice personal visit, how am I to even guess what trials she has endured? She and Sarah Palin are my heroes. Bless them for their American sensibilities and guts, true pioneer women.

This is only Friday. We members welcomed into the HCF forum early on are now adjusting to the new path you have set before us. You are the leader, you do the hard work, like Hillary and Sarah, and I, for one, hold you to higher standards that I could not match over this long year. We can put our individual fusses and cusses on the threads and go about our day. We don't have to moderate, pay the bills to keep the forum running--which I hope we can address again (still no credit card here), or absorb some abusive language. We need the light of leadership. I still don't want BO supporters here yet, and I respect your decision regarding that.

You're our leader, Murray. Thank you for the Hillary/Sarah grace, grit, civil discourse and intelligence you exude. I hope YOU are getting some rest.

[Ijane]

No, not necessarily & that is my point. Everyone knows that admin/mods were pretty quick to hit the suspend button if a member expressed a view which was "problematic" to the group cause. That's not a secret - that's public knowledge! So, the forum SHAPED the expression of a particular viewpoint which may not have accurately reflected all of the people who wanted to post or who read the forum.

Murray, all the people who wanted to post or read the forum are NOT the people who helped build the forum whether they wanted to help or not. A decision was made as far as who would be allowed to post and therefore everyone else is irrelevant in terms of who should be involved in determining the direction of this forum!

[Ray_of_Hope]

I understand the frustration that is currently going on, but I also understand your need to do what you feel is necessary. I bear no ill-will toward you and I do not think less of you. You have done a wonderful job running this board. That is something I will never take away from you. At the same time, I can sympathize with those who feel that everything is happening too fast. For some, it will take a while to process.

[eviee]

I want to thank you Murray and all the moderators for all you have done.

I always felt that Obama was going to win because there was too much going against McCain. It was such an upstream battle for him and Palin. It was also a brilliant (please don't misunderstand me) executed plan by the Obama Campaign and the deceptive media. However, Obama's inexperience, alliances, Acorn and his extremely radical ideas of change will continue to dog him.
Everyone of us in our own way will be more prepared for them.

To your credit, this form continues to be the best forum for discussion and as Hobbitt mentioned, resources. :):):)

[Agent 00½ FL]

In the months after Hillary ended her campaign & pledged "support" for Obama, many Hillary supporters in this forum would express anger at other Hillary supporters who criticized Hillary's willingess to "support" Obama. They would defend Hillary to the max and attempt to explain why she made the decisions she did, and why her principles had not been compromised. I was one such person who always defended her decision to "support" Obama because I believed that was the only way to ensure her political survival.

It's interesting, therefore, that some of these very same people that defended Hillary's decision to "support" Obama now feel totally comfortable trashing me to the max solely because I am attempting to open the forum up to a broader base of participants. Yes, many members have left this site simply because I wanted to be more INCLUSIVE - a noble goal one would have thought. And rather than attempting to UNDERSTAND the reasons why I have made this decision to be more NUETRUAL & INCLUSIVE and rather than DEFENDING me, these same people have TRASHED me.

How hypocritical & disappointing. I wish someone would defend me! I am a nobody, just an everyday person, but in some ways I now know what Hillary must have felt like when some of her supporters TRASHED her for making a choice they didn't agree with.

Not for nothing, I understand the reasons for change. But in all reality many of us were broken when Hillary threw in the towel during the Primary Election. Most of us were still not righted and tryinging to do the only thing we thought would help us heal by supporting Plan "B" McCain. On the night of Nov. 4th all Hell broke out here on this forum. Hillary bashers, Sarah Palin bashers and Puma bashers broke out in a full on attack. Many of us felt more battered then ever. I respect your decisions and choices, but I for one thought of the HCF as a safehouse, and now it is obvious that it is no longer safe.

[hillarymyhero]

murray
Well, this forum when started we , the strong Hillary supporters joined you with sincere heart for the common cause and a common dream to get Hillary 2008. And then Hillary's nomination got stolen by Obama...All of us then again got missioned up for Hillary 2012, which got dismissed as of now....

My whole point is I can't take the idea of making this forum open for all traffic because I can not support Obama's supporters for their idiocy.........

I can't get along with them and honestly, I come to this forum NOT for arguements and not for thrashing any one. I come to this forum now for sharing a commoness....I am sick and tired of being thrashed by Obama supporters in my real life for the last 2 years.........

In my view, this forum could serve as the core source of healthy criticism for the next administration and as we move along we can once again start re building our roots to support our candidate for 2012..........

[CGP]

On the night of Nov. 4th all Hell broke out here on this forum. Hillary bashers, Sarah Palin bashers and Puma bashers broke out in a full on attack.

Sorry, but I think the above statement is somewhat of an exaggeration. The forum had many times before faced battles with trolls. Was it a surprise that it would occur when Obama won? It shouldn't have been.



but I for one thought of the HCF as a safehouse, and now it is obvious that it is no longer safe.

It depends what you want safety from?

If it's safety from intentionally abusive/hostile posters, such protection will always be provided here, as much as is possible.

If it's safety from having to interact with or read posts from people whose view may differs from yours, that will no longer be provided here.

[PartyOfOne]

Murray, you have my support, but since my presence here is a result of inclusiveness I don't know how much it'll help. I think some people just need to lash out right now and I'm sure they know they'll be welcome to come back later. I'm not a mourner type. I can't handle being with my Republican friends right now because they're all wrapped up in whining and blaming McCain for not being conservative enough. I'd wind up getting ugly with them. This is where I come for sanity. Even when people freak out a little it's a sane and reasoned freakout. What seems to be really coming to the surface in so many of these threads is people are wanting to get back to work. We need a mission.

[HRCin08/GeekLove]

I've told you before, although I don't agree with all your decisions, I support you. You've been there for us for so long. I know that emotions are high and it may take some time for people to adjust to the new forum, but I think things will eventually settle down. :)

[PuppyDogMom]

2 cents...(well, maybe 4...2 isn't worth what it used to be:rolleyes:)...

Trashing Murray should not be tolerated. Murray: you've done nothing but good things here. You've been a voice of reason, you have righted the ship when it seemed as though it was ready to keel over, you hung in there...

And now that you're trying to find a way to carry on that makes sense, you're getting criticized for trying to find a way to carry on. Folks need to stop looking backward. The election is over, but the issues remain. So, let's not lose sight of that.

Judging others is not productive. You can't know what goes into any decision that someone makes. You don't know what Hillary was dealing with when she decided to support Obama. I'm seeing so much self-centered behavior here.

Re-focusing on the issues and getting away from people-bashing sounds like a great idea. We can't change the outcome of the election, but we can become a force to improve the democratic process, to demand the end of misogyny, to support gay rights...and so on.

And if anyone doubts that what Murray is suggesting, ie, offering an opportunity to discuss, disagree, dispute, share varying ideas...well, just go back and read this thread. While "bickering" about this forum and where it should go, ideas emerged and some actually floated to the top. There was, within this thread, a transformation of sorts. So, it was a good thing.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it...

[Aria]

Of course it's possible to know the answer to this question. Obviously a majority wouldn't be relative to the membership number but rather the majority of members who have been contributing on an ongoing basis.

That's correct. You weren't elected, you were selected by a lot of really great people who worked along with you to build this forum. I suppose those are the people you're obliged to answer to.

Must you be so nasty? This is bordering on badgering and not very pretty to watch. I may not be aware of all the inner maneuverings that have gone on in the past, but I have been here long enough to gain a great deal of respect for the way the Administrator runs this forum and for many of its members. If you have a personal grudge, I do wish that you would take it behind scenes and allow for more civil discourse here.

[CGP]

2 cents...(well, maybe 4...2 isn't worth what it used to be:rolleyes:)...

Trashing Murray should not be tolerated. Murray: you've done nothing but good things here. You've been a voice of reason, you have righted the ship when it seemed as though it was ready to keel over, you hung in there...

And now that you're trying to find a way to carry on that makes sense, you're getting criticized for trying to find a way to carry on. Folks need to stop looking backward. The election is over, but the issues remain. So, let's not lose sight of that.

Judging others is not productive. You can't know what goes into any decision that someone makes. You don't know what Hillary was dealing with when she decided to support Obama. I'm seeing so much self-centered behavior here.

Re-focusing on the issues and getting away from people-bashing sounds like a great idea. We can't change the outcome of the election, but we can become a force to improve the democratic process, to demand the end of misogyny, to support gay rights...and so on.

And if anyone doubts that what Murray is suggesting, ie, offering an opportunity to discuss, disagree, dispute, share varying ideas...well, just go back and read this thread. While "bickering" about this forum and where it should go, ideas emerged and some actually floated to the top. There was, within this thread, a transformation of sorts. So, it was a good thing.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it...

Words of wisdom! :cool:

[CGP]

I know that emotions are high and it may take some time for people to adjust to the new forum, but I think things will eventually settle down. :)

I agree.

[PumaResponders-com]

I have not been posting very frequently and I'm not even sure just how inclusive the new incarnation will be. Inclusive of Dems and Reps, liberals and conservatives, fine. Pro and anti abortion fine, if moderated, maybe they can find some solutions. This has been a well-moderated board and might be a good place for some constructive coming together.

As long as the board continues to defend Palin and HIllary against the unfair attacks, fine.

[lanesharon]

If you have a personal grudge, I do wish that you would take it behind scenes and allow for more civil discourse here.
We active Hillary supporters have never been known to sit around the campfire and sing Kum-Bah-Ya. I don't think she is discussing a personal grudge, since she has been a very active member of this forum for a long time. She is probably speaking for many of her compatriots.

Anyway, I thought that this is what the 'new forum' is all about - open communication from all points of view..... ;)

[Ijane]

Must you be so nasty? This is bordering on badgering and not very pretty to watch. I may not be aware of all the inner maneuverings that have gone on in the past, but I have been here long enough to gain a great deal of respect for the way the Administrator runs this forum and for many of its members. If you have a personal grudge, I do wish that you would take it behind scenes and allow for more civil discourse here.

If Murray feels that my post was snarky and that it offended him then he can tell me so. I was speaking straightforwardly to Murray. I didn't have a snarky bone in my body when I typed the post. This is probably a good example of what happens when you open up a forum to a broad spectrum of ideas for debate or discussion. You get a whole bunch of people offended by a whole bunch of different things. A person might think they're discussing while someone else accuses them of badgering. You think your job was hard now, Murray..lol

[sadie]

I think the problem murray is people are once again left without a home and safe harbor. Maybe you had noble intentions but I think the move should have been more gradual. People have had enough shock, feelings are too raw. People need to grieve. But I also think you needed to realize that if people had not fallen in line after the primary, they certainly weren't going to right after the election. Maybe you did want to move on, go mainstream, restore some sanity, whatever your decision was based on. But the majority of people here just aren't ready. I wish you luck with your new vision for your life, I really do. I hope you will be happier and more relaxed. But for the rest of us, we are just too militant to go along with you. We aren't ready to make nice, and I suspect we never will be ready. Everyone has their own path to follow. For a lot of us, that path is just too vastly different than yours, and we are now headed in opposite directions. But I do wish you well.

Agree. I am eternally grateful that you allowed me on here in September. I've felt at home here and having this forum really helped in the lead-up to the election. But almost instantly, the Obama supporters (or those who very quickly accepted the election results) started with the gloating and the get over it talk. I'm not ready to get over it. For me, this place hasn't been the same since Tuesday night. But I do appreciate everything you've done and respect what you decide to do with your own forum.

Some nice comments thanks. But one major correction is required: No-one has been asked to "fall in line". Not a single time has that been asked of anyone.

You might not have asked this of us (not that I recall) but other members did. Quite forcefully. That's what I reacted to, essentially being told that this is the future, accept it. I wasn't ready to do that then and I'm not ready to do that now. So I lurk but I don't want to get in the middle of all of the bickering.

Murray, I'll never be mad at you for this, but emotions are running high. I felt yanked directly into "you must accept this" land, and I'll admit I am not ready to do that. Do I wish the changes would have been more gradual? Of course I do, but you can't always get what you want.

I agree with this too. The change was a little too sudden for me. That doesn't mean you did the wrong thing nor would I talk badly about you for it, but I have to be honest.

[Agent 00½ FL]

Sorry, but I think the above statement is somewhat of an exaggeration. The forum had many times before faced battles with trolls. Was it a surprise that it would occur when Obama won? It shouldn't have been.

You have no clue.... you were the administrator, but maybe you did not read the numerous posts... Did OBAMA truly WIN? I think NOT. He has no clue what he has signed on for. Good luck Admin, Murray, Muzza and to all that are falling in line...

[CGP]

You have no clue.... you were the administrator, but maybe you did not read the numerous posts... Did OBAMA truly WIN? I think NOT. He has no clue what he has signed on for. Good luck Admin, Murray, Muzza and to all that are falling in line...

This is very insulting, but I will leave it be.

It's not possible to read over 500,000 posts, just so you know.

And no, I have not "fallen in line". Exactly WHERE have I expressed "support" for Obama? Nowhere.

I am just not interested in the "war" anymore.

[Meg]

Good luck Admin, Murray, Muzza and to all that are falling in line...


Can I just honestly ask why it's constantly refered to as "Falling in line"?

[Johnf]

In the months after Hillary ended her campaign & pledged "support" for Obama, many Hillary supporters in this forum would express anger at other Hillary supporters who criticized Hillary's willingess to "support" Obama. They would defend Hillary to the max and attempt to explain why she made the decisions she did, and why her principles had not been compromised. I was one such person who always defended her decision to "support" Obama because I believed that was the only way to ensure her political survival.

It's interesting, therefore, that some of these very same people that defended Hillary's decision to "support" Obama now feel totally comfortable trashing me to the max solely because I am attempting to open the forum up to a broader base of participants. Yes, many members have left this site simply because I wanted to be more INCLUSIVE - a noble goal one would have thought. And rather than attempting to UNDERSTAND the reasons why I have made this decision to be more NUETRUAL & INCLUSIVE and rather than DEFENDING me, these same people have TRASHED me.

How hypocritical & disappointing. I wish someone would defend me! I am a nobody, just an everyday person, but in some ways I now know what Hillary must have felt like when some of her supporters TRASHED her for making a choice they didn't agree with.

I think you're missing the point Murray. They didn't leave the sight because you wanted to be "more inclusive" they left the sight because you willingly decided to open it up to Obama supporters, the very people that abused Hillary and her supporters. The very people that abused women; like Palin, who attacked the integrity of McCain, while playing the race card. By the way, I understand things are really going to change with Obama as Pres. There is talks now of it impacting sports; teams are concerned about their survival. http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/10/wsj-nfl-teams-rush-to-avoid-obamas-tax-increase.html

Hillary didn't wilingly support Obama. She fought till the end, and is most likely still fighting now, She owes a darn sight more than you or I would owe. Ten Million and her job is on the line. Still she fought Obama, losing millions of her own money with heavies like Dean, Pelosi and the media smearing her minute by minute. She had no choice but to quit. Now, if she continues her support of Barrack, past the point of where her money has been paid back to her, then, I would not respect her - the fight would only have been talk. But I don't suspect she will do that. These two people are not friends. It's obvious Bill and Obama have been friends. This is going to be a very divided government.

Murray, when you start up a forum, like you take on any job, there are going to be great days and bad days. Right now, it looks like you are feeling sorry for yourself and you want support because you aren't getting the support and compliments you want; instead there are critisms. Did you take on the forum for praise; or because it was the right thing to do and do not worry about the praise or criticism? If you stopped comparing yourself-your situation to Hillary, people may not say as much, but I sense a lot of these comparisons from you lately. You are not Hillary. Your situaiton is not like Hillary's.

Let other people sing your praises.

[CGP]

Did you take on the forum for praise; or because it was the right thing to do and do not worry about the praise or criticism?

Did I start up HCF for praise? No, it was simply the right thing to do.

Did I decide to change the direction of the forum for praise? No, it was simply the right thing to do.

Both decisions resulted in me receiving more negative attention than I ever have in my entire life.

Does your question require any further response?

[lanesharon]

The very people that abused women; like Palin.

JohnF - Are you sure you are a guy? Cause you 'get it' more than many women I know. And, please, don't forget all that Hillary endured from the Obama campaign! :D

I think what we needed this week, more than anything, is 'a soft place to land'. To share our pain, anger, upset, grief, etc..

Most Warriors get to sit on the battlefield for a while and take a deep breath and assess the situation. And, we didn't even get that in the one place where we fought so ardently.

We Got Robbed, Again!

[cindyb]

IMO, I feel you have done a great job on this forum Muzza.
You have been more than fair, you asked for, listened to, and considered all in-put.
You have gone way over and beyond as far as I can see and I have only been here a few months.

Change is hard, it has only been a few days so people are still smarting.
I know I thought I was adjusting well until the press conference today and the Nancy Reagan insult and I got all fired up again. Seems like there is always some woman being insulted somewhere. Disheartening.

Some people will leave but that is life, new ones will take their place.

Don't ever second guess yourself, you have done dam good with this board.
:)

It will all shake itself out in the end.

[Johnf]

Did I start up HCF for praise? No, it was simply the right thing to do.

Did I decide to change the direction of the forum for praise? No, it was simply the right thing to do.

Both decisions resulted in me receiving more negative attention than I ever have in my entire life.

Does your question require any further response?

You have had nothing but positive attention until a few weeks before the election when you started talking about McCain losing, started talking about the name change of the forum, started critizing people for taking up the fight. This forum for months did nothing but sing your praises. You had thousands visiting this sight at one time; the media spoke of your forum, in terms of for a worthy cause, unless of course it was Obama supporters who tried to put a negative slant on it, because that is what they did to win the election. Mostly, you were respected, complimented, loved. What do you care if anyone continues to take up a worthy fight as long as they are respectful? They too were doing what they thought was right. You have negative attention now, beause you were seaking attention I sensed. You moved away from your values, who you said you were. You because a different person. You changed. YOu may have thought it was for the better, but most here, probably think you sold yourself out. I'm speaking to you as I would speak with a friend, colleague, my own son.

I always say, finish the way you start. Keep the same values. It's whn you move away from them you have trouble.

Hillary, or those connected to her, if you're reading this, remember it is important to be the way you started out.

No one says you have to go crazy doing it. You don't need to do this 24/7. There were many people on this forum, discussing the issues. You could have put people in charge, asked for donations and tole people what you needed in order to keep the forum running. That we'd understand.

I understand you don't want to be or want other people to be addicted to a forum, one thing, one person, one idea, you want them to have a life, meaning and purpose, and see all sides and that is a good thing. And you should encourage that, but you cannot make people think or do what they don't want to, just like no one can make you do something you don't want to do. When people feel forced; they get our backs up. They rebel.

As I have said all along, the most important thing are values, integrity, respect. Without that, people are lost.

I am not one to say something just to appease someone, or give false praise to manipulate someone, or make them like me. I want people to trust that what I say, I say honestly, from the heart and for the right reasons.

[Aria]

...My whole point is I can't take the idea of making this forum open for all traffic because I can not support Obama's supporters for their idiocy......I can't get along with them and honestly, I come to this forum NOT for arguments and not for thrashing any one. I come to this forum now for sharing a commoness....I am sick and tired of being thrashed by Obama supporters in my real life for the last 2 years.........

In my view, this forum could serve as the core source of healthy criticism for the next administration and as we move along we can once again start re building our roots to support our candidate for 2012........

I don't understand why some members seem to think that this forum will become overrun by obots. Why would they stay? To take part in intelligent, caring discussion for solutions to the problems of our country? - as their reputation preceeds them, they would soon tire and leave. And if only here to bash and harass, ignore them and they will go away, or admin. will show the way out. I don't see it as a long-term problem as they would find other talk-spots more to their liking. However, we do have to assume that there are some innocent people who were simply mistaken in their votes :rolleyes:, in which case, we could reach out a hand and lead them to clearer vision :).

I think a lot of people would agree with serving a watchdog function in part, and we could well find ourselves becoming active on one issue or another as they present themselves in the upcoming administration. And it could come to pass, that as things transpire, consensus could conceivably arrive on a candidate, or candidates, to support in future elections where we could possibly have some impact as a group, but that's a ways off and then to be determined. At least, that's the way I see it at present.

[cindyb]

I'm not a mourner type. I can't handle being with my Republican friends right now because they're all wrapped up in whining and blaming McCain for not being conservative enough. I'd wind up getting ugly with them.

I agree, I am so furious with the Republican party right now for downing McCain and Palin I could spit.

I feel like this country is more divided than I have ever seen it in my entire life. Very depressing. I pray it gets better.

[lanesharon]

I don't understand why some members seem to think that this forum will become overrun by obots. Why would they stay?

For the same reason that they stayed in DU, and Daily Kos, and many other places - Just for the fun of it!

[LadyLazarus]

Um . . . All I can say is that it’s pretty clear to me the title of this thread is rhetorical. It’s called an analogy, and the device is used to show similarities between things that are essentially dissimilar. Is Murray Hillary? No. Does Murray think he’s Hillary. Of course not. But do similarities exist between the two? Right now, I’d say yes. The commonality that I see between Murray and Hillary is that both have worked hard to build a constituency and at times many in that constituency can be extremely critical and ungrateful of all the selfless, hard work they do for others.

[LucyTN]

I haven't posted much because there has been very little said in the last few days that I agree with. I came here because I needed to find like minded people to discuss things with. I had to leave other boards that had gotten too rude and mean. Election night, which was one of my lowest points in recent memory, I witnessed rudeness right here on this forum the likes of which I hadn't seen in a while. A few of the members took it upon themselves to tell everyone else how to act and what to do. I'm not sure why they appointed themselves bosses but to keep from getting in the middle of a huge fight, I left. When I stop by now they're usually still at it, so I just pass on through.

I appreciate all that you have done to give us a place to converse without having someone jump down our throats. That has changed and I'm sorry to see it.

[Aria]

...I feel like this country is more divided than I have ever seen it in my entire life. Very depressing. I pray it gets better.

Exactly why we need to stick together.

[Johnf]

Um . . . All I can say is that it’s pretty clear to me the title of this thread is rhetorical. It’s called an analogy, and the device is used to show similarities between things that are essentially dissimilar. Is Murray Hillary? No. Does Murray think he’s Hillary. Of course not. But do similarities exist between the two? Right now, I’d say yes. The commonality that I see between Murray and Hillary is that both have worked hard to build a constituency and at times many in that constituency can be extremely critical and ungrateful of all the selfless, hard work they do for others.

Of late, Murray has been comparing himself with Hillary. I never heard Hillary complain about the work she did, even though it could sometimes be a thankless job. She thanked everyone right up until the end, even though she didn't win. That was classy. That made people think and admire her.

[lanesharon]

The commonality that I see between Murray and Hillary is that both have worked hard to build a constituency and at times many in that constituency can be extremely critical and ungrateful of all the selfless, hard work they do for others.

Ahem, he wasn't the only one working hard......

[evolin]

No, not necessarily & that is my point. Everyone knows that admin/mods were pretty quick to hit the suspend button if a member expressed a view which was "problematic" to the group cause. That's not a secret - that's public knowledge! So, the forum SHAPED the expression of a particular viewpoint which may not have accurately reflected all of the people who wanted to post or who read the forum.
And that I agree on! I have been the recipient of such actions.
Sometimes I felt I was over on the DU or 'move on'. The methods may have been well intentioned, but the 'group think' methods did not bring any good result at the end.
This has been overall a great place for those of us who felt kicked aside by the Democratic party, but I think it was so regulated that outside opinions were never heard or tolerated.
I do not believe in isolating ourselves from the world. Regurgitating to each other is not helpful. Letting the worst Obama supporters in to spew their vile garbage could not be allowed either. Some of us suffered greatly on the other web sites where they reigned supreme.
I have no idea what efforts the mods put in here, and realize their jobs were tough; but it is time to turn the page if this forum can be a force for change. If we cannot turn the page and move on, we will have no power and that is a shame.
I think this has been a great forum regardless of my small objections on how it has been run. I thank Murry and the moderators for their time, expense and effort.
You are throwing the baby out with the bath water when you attack Murry, though.

[thebword]

I'm not trashing you Murray, however just like Hillary understood she was risking losing her base, you must have been aware many members were not happy with the idea of interacting with the Obama supporters who trashed them and Hillary like it was a national pastime.

If this Forum became insulated and protected against Hillary haters, it is because that was the rule at the beginning. It went something like "there are enough places on the web to be pro Obama and Hillary bash, they don't need this Forum too.

Supporting Plan B, was also developed during the period we were working together before the RBC and the Democrat Convention's floor vote. The Forum naturally seemed to be of the same signal mind "enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I do believe the harsh reaction you have received this week is because the Forum seem to open up to Obama supporters as Obama's acceptance speech concluded. Taking many members off guard to gloating, foul mouthed, rejoicers. Of course they were dealt with swiftly, but they were still here and they upset people. "To the victor goes the spoils" and this Forum was one of them, aided by you.

Now more important to me, Murray since Tuesday night you have been defending your position, and seem to be taken aback by the response of the longtime Forum members. I'm sorry you have been hurt and offended. However, in your comments and explanations you have revealed that your opinion of the members who have been working hard for months trying to help Hillary get another crack at it in 2012 were being delusional, emotional, unrealistic, signal minded, and boarding on mentally unhealthy.

You accepted Obama's win and McCain's defeat (which means Hillary's too) months ago and obviously have felt the rest of the members were annoying and you just wanted us to move on already and accept defeat as well. We bored you.

Sorry, but you sound like you are not sorry that you opened the gates and let them in on election night, without warning. You sound more like you think we deserved a burst of immediate reality check. Yes, weeks of discussions were had -- but no decisions were made known to us. Only the complete closing of the Forum for 2 weeks if Obama won.

So forgive me for being stunned that we have reduced to this, in fighting and accusations that the Obama camp must be getting a good laugh at reading daily; thanks again to this new improved open to all who want to ridicule us Forum.

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut for days, because this is your baby to raise up as you see fit, but putting down members because they liked having a place to go were they felt safe and comfortable with like-minded individuals is how this Forum started. I don't think it was unreasonable for them to want it to stay that way. That is not your vision, you have made that clear now so some have chosen to leave, that is their vision.

I am not bashing you Murray, you have always been kind and someone I have admired in the way you run a tight ship here. I have felt very welcomed and accepted. I hope to continue to post here and at the "other" place as it's focus will be towards the human rights of not only women, but the injustices to children, and minorities all over the world. With a specific focus to promote more women in politics, to create a more equal representation of our population, the "other" forum interests me as I want to focus on doing something good with my new found skills in activism.

[Les33]

I have to amend what I posted before. I just got off a really distressing thread. I think it's naive to believe that civil discussions with Obama supporters can occur on this Forum right now. I don't think it's hypocritical to believe this, either. Just go to any thread where an Obama supporter has surfaced and see what has occurred. I don't condone the way all Forum members are behaving, but I do understand and empathize to a degree. I don't see ANY constructive dialogue. It's too soon to expect it. I've heard the majority of members here express this need for time, of those who've chosen to speak up. For whatever reason, you seem unwilling to entertain this notion, Murray. You keep arguing your point on the basis of being inclusive, but aren't giving any consideration to the concept of giving people a little time. And on this point, I disagree with you.

[CGP]

Ahem, he wasn't the only one working hard......

Did I or anyone else claim that was the case?

No.

This forum has been able to remain operational through the many moderators who have devoted hours/days/months to helping out. And of course to all of the members who have posted, including yourself.

[Aria]

For the same reason that they stayed in DU, and Daily Kos, and many other places - Just for the fun of it!

I have confidence that it wouldn't be allowed to happen, for the reasons I mentioned.

[Johnf]

I'm not trashing you Murray, however just like Hillary understood she was risking losing her base, you must have been aware many members were not happy with the idea of interacting with the Obama supporters who trashed them and Hillary like it was a national pastime.

If this Forum became insulated and protected against Hillary haters, it is because that was the rule at the beginning. It went something like "there are enough places on the web to be pro Obama and Hillary bash, they don't need this Forum too.

Supporting Plan B, was also developed during the period we were working together before the RBC and the Democrat Convention's floor vote. The Forum naturally seemed to be of the same signal mind "enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I do believe the harsh reaction you have received this week is because the Forum seem to open up to Obama supporters as Obama's acceptance speech concluded. Taking many members off guard to gloating, foul mouthed, rejoicers. Of course they were dealt with swiftly, but they were still here and they upset people. "To the victor goes the spoils" and this Forum was one of them, aided by you.

Now more important to me, Murray since Tuesday night you have been defending your position, and seem to be taken aback by the response of the longtime Forum members. I'm sorry you have been hurt and offended. However, in your comments and explanations you have revealed that your opinion of the members who have been working hard for months trying to help Hillary get another crack at it in 2012 were being delusional, emotional, unrealistic, signal minded, and boarding on mentally unhealthy.

You accepted Obama's win and McCain's defeat (which means Hillary's too) months ago and obviously have felt the rest of the members were annoying and you just wanted us to move on already and accept defeat as well. We bored you.

Sorry, but you sound like you are not sorry that you opened the gates and let the wolves in on us on election night, without warning. You sound more like you think we deserved a burst of immediate reality check. Yes, weeks of discussions were had -- but no decisions were made known to us. Only the complete closing of the Forum for 2 weeks if Obama won.

So forgive me for being stunned that we have reduced to this, in fighting and accusations that the Obama camp must be getting a good laugh at reading daily; thanks again to this new improved open to all who want to ridicule us Forum.

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut for days, because this is your baby to raise up as you see fit, but putting down members because they liked having a place to go were they felt safe and comfortable with like-minded individuals is how this Forum started. I don't think it was unreasonable for them to want it to stay that way. That is not your vision, you have made that clear now so some have chosen to leave, that is their vision.

I am not bashing you Murray, you have always been kind and someone I have admired in the way you run a tight ship here. I have felt very welcomed and accepted. I hope to continue to post here and at the "other" place as it's focus will be towards the human rights of not only women, but the injustices to children, and minorities all over the world. With a specific focus to promote more women in politics, to create a more equal representation of our population, the "other" forum interests me as I want to focus on doing something good with my new found skills in activism.


Extremely well said.

[Pepper]

Some people will leave but that is life, new ones will take their place.

cindyb, I am wondering, did you send out literally thousands of emails, did you put your life virtually on hold for a year to do everything in your power to make sure the media knew the dirt on BO, did you start meetup groups for Hillary or McCain, did you phone bank for any candidate so much that it ran up your phone bill, did you host Hillary or McCain parties at your house??? Did you travel to one of the conventions? Did you do all of this and work in coordination with other like-minded people on this forum for months and months to ensure that justice and fairness won out over corruption? I'm not trying to be hateful, but am saying that it is not so nice to be flippant about long-time members leaving in droves.
And of course we all are very, very thankful to Murray and have supported his forum emotionally and financially throught this long painful election. This is his forum and he can do what he sees fit and I support him in that no matter what.

[CGP]

I have to amend what I posted before. I just got off a really distressing thread. I think it's naive to believe that civil discussions with Obama supporters can occur on this Forum right now. I don't think it's hypocritical to believe this, either. Just go to any thread where an Obama supporter has surfaced and see what has occurred. I don't condone the way all Forum members are behaving, but I do understand and empathize to a degree. I don't see ANY constructive dialogue. It's too soon to expect it. I've heard the majority of members here express this need for time, of those who've chosen to speak up. For whatever reason, you seem unwilling to entertain this notion, Murray. You keep arguing your point on the basis of being inclusive, but aren't giving any consideration to the concept of giving people a little time. And on this point, I disagree with you.

The fact the forum is CLOSED to new registrations should be evidence enough of my willingness to give this process TIME. Yes, a couple of "trolls" caused a ruckus for a few hours after election - before being shown the exit door - but they should not be viewed as examples of "reasonable & fair-minded" Obama supporters. Yes, we have not yet seen constructive dialogue with Obama supporters because they are not here to post or be able to participate. Simple.

[lanesharon]

Did I or anyone else claim that was the case?

No.

Yes, the original poster who I was responding to did. Please read it.

The commonality that I see between Murray and Hillary is that both have worked hard to build a constituency and at times many in that constituency can be extremely critical and ungrateful of all the selfless, hard work they do for others.


That constituency Murray were the people who helped to build, finance, and maintain this forum. They have a right to have their opinions heard without being declared 'ungrateful'. :mad:

[RE:]

This is very insulting, but I will leave it be.

It's not possible to read over 500,000 posts, just so you know.

And no, I have not "fallen in line". Exactly WHERE have I expressed "support" for Obama? Nowhere.

I am just not interested in the "war" anymore.

Can I just honestly ask why it's constantly refered to as "Falling in line"?Just my opinion, but maybe they are referring to falling in line with the new forum path. I don't believe anyone thinks you, Murray, are asking them to fall in line with the O-soup's.

[CGP]

Just my opinion, but maybe they are referring to falling in line with the new forum path. I don't believe anyone thinks you, Murray, are asking them to fall in line with the O-soup's.

Yes, maybe you are right. I hadn't thought of that.

[Meg]

Just my opinion, but maybe they are referring to falling in line with the new forum path. I don't believe anyone thinks you, Murray, are asking them to fall in line with the O-soup's.


Maybe I'm daft or something but I can't see how wanting to have an open dicussion with everyone; republicans, democrats and all independents is somehow "falling in line."

Believe I know if some had said, "Now you HAVE to like and support Obama." Then I could understand. But nothing be said is expressing that in anyway.

Of course I could never be directing that at you Rebecca!:p My occasionally computer challenged friend!:D

[cindyb]

cindyb, I am wondering, did you send out literally thousands of emails, did you put your life virtually on hold for a year to do everything in your power to make sure the media knew the dirt on BO, did you start meetup groups for Hillary or McCain, did you phone bank for any candidate so much that it ran up your phone bill, did you host Hillary or McCain parties at your house??? Did you travel to one of the conventions? Did you do all of this and work in coordination with other like-minded people on this forum for months and months to ensure that justice and fairness won out over corruption? I'm not trying to be hateful, but am saying that it is not so nice to be flippant about long-time members leaving in droves.
And of course we all are very, very thankful to Murray and have supported his forum emotionally and financially throught this long painful election. This is his forum and he can do what he sees fit and I support him in that no matter what.

No, I didn't and I honestly am not trying to be "flippant", I'm really not.
It is just that nothing stays the same. Change is inevitable even though, personally, I am always adverse to change.

I really, really wish Hillary would have gotten the nomination and would have been the one to beat John McCain if he was going to be beaten. It breaks my heart that he lost to such a person as Obama.

I, also, will support Muzza no matter what he decides.

I admire the PUMA's so very much, I think you are all incredible people, I wish more Republicans were like you and put country before party.

[lanesharon]

Murray. You keep arguing your point on the basis of being inclusive, but aren't giving any consideration to the concept of giving people a little time. And on this point, I disagree with you.

Another gentleman who understands the need for a period of time to release feelings and 'gather our thoughts'. Thank You!! :D

Yes, Virginia, there is (real) hope for us!!

[Pepper]

No, I didn't and I honestly am not trying to be "flippant", I'm really not.
It is just that nothing stays the same. Change is inevitable even though, personally, I am always adverse to change.

I really, really wish Hillary would have gotten the nomination and would have been the one to beat John McCain if he was going to be beaten. It breaks my heart that he lost to such a person as Obama.

I, also, will support Muzza no matter what he decides.

I admire the PUMA's so very much, I think you are all incredible people, I wish more Republicans were like you and put country before party.

I appreciate that, thank you. I am not adverse to change either. I understand the decision about the direction of the forum, but many are confused about this sudden direction not even a full day after the election.

[Karen Keefe]

Emotions are still raw and slowly starting to balance. Another week or two will give folks rest and easier time to think in the daily living world vs. the concentrated flurry of a campaign.

[NanCi1214]

This is your forum Murray. You have told us that over these last few days, as you made a 180 degree change to the format of the forum. So, people had a choice of staying or leaving. The fact that some have chosen to leave seems to have upset you a great deal, and you have personalized it. They have left because the format no longer serves their needs; pure and simple. It is not a statement against you personally.

You are an educated person and I would hope that you considered all of this before you made this change. The change is a personal one for you, which I am sure was upsetting to some of your volunteers who invested a great deal of their personal time working here to keep the forum going. There are also people who invested considerable donation money to keep the forum self supporting. If I had been one, I would have wondered why this decision was made without a 'group meeting' to discuss it.

Murray, this forum was functioning because of a group of people, not one individual. You did not keep it going without the help of many others. Yet, you made a unilateral decision without considering all of those who kept it going. Sorry, but I think they have a right to be a little upset.

Some good points here.
Perhaps some of the consequences weren't forseen, such as a poster coming on calling Sarah Palin "dumb" and a "hick", another calling Obama "great", etc. Who needs that? We can get that from the mainstream media or plenty of other forums. This forum was already bipartisan in that we have Republicans now as well as Democrats and plenty of Independents. Call this the loyal opposition (loyal to country, opposed to the current administration) and pro-woman candidates. That does pretty much describe what is here on this forum anyway.

[CGP]

This forum was already bipartisan in that we have Republicans now as well as Democrats and plenty of Independents. Call this the loyal opposition (loyal to country, opposed to the current administration) and pro-woman candidates. That does pretty much describe what is here on this forum anyway.

I think personally this what I am reacting to - the idea that this forum should have a unified voice. I don't think it should. That is why I wish to change the name/focus away from any particular person or party. The problem with having a unified voice is that it promotes suppression of difference - anyone who disagrees with the majority opinion is demonized for thinking differently - that has most certainly happened in this forum in the past. This forum should be viewed as a place for discussion, not as the headquarters of some political movement/group where everyone must believe the same thing - the latter sounds much like Obamamania to me!

[Frances]

I just want to say that this forum put out a great deal of information, and research, and
the most important aspect was "action"............If you did a count on all the actions
taken, we made a quick impact. But like take Larry Summers, I wrote email requesting that he not be considered because of his past sexism. Now we will have
someone else, who will take action to forgive and forget, and send email approving
of him because he is so damn good at the economy. The economy trumps sexism.
This is just an example of us going in circles! In others words you were the best
at "action".....getting us going, and involved. I made mention earlier that I felt
like the upside down woman, and I think I am still am. I think we all need a break,
get out in nature, then come back to the table.

Regardless how anyone feels, much appreciation is given to Adm. Mods for the direction this forum took, and will be taking.

[Folamix]

Murray, I've been trying to stay out of the drama (I get plenty of it on another website, where I'm an admin). Anyway, I am still here with you. I trust you to do what you think is best. Those who are unhappy with the changes will go elsewhere, while others will join once the registration re-opens. I'm interested to see what happens. I look on this as another chapter in the adventures of 2008.

Hang in there, kiddo.

Same here. Some will stay, some will go. When the dust settles, hopefully we can move on to the next chapter.

[Aria]

Another gentleman who understands the need for a period of time to release feelings and 'gather our thoughts'. [B]Thank You!!

Sorry, but I don't understand what is preventing anyone from taking the time they need to post, listen, think, or take a nap. If a thread that you seek isn't already there, start one appropriate to the topic you wish to discuss. I'd guess that you would surely find like-minded people.

[CGP]

When the dust settles, hopefully we can move on to the next chapter.

I think the dust settled for me months ago! Which might it explain my total lack of reaction to Obama's win.

[joeysky18]

My dear friends, no matter how much you kick and scream, you will have President Uh in 2009.

We did the best we could. We fought till the last minute. There is nothing else we can do but take it to the next step. We can evolve to resume a new role and become the watchdog of the government and the media.

I will not let Obummer and his media crews go easy for the next 4 years.

[Lynn2008]

Murray, I don't know you really but you welcomed me very warmly and I feel at home here already.

Here's a thought for your contemplation.

Set a few simple rules. The less the better. Enforce them quickly and fairly.

Warn once. Ban when you must.

Then let the chips fall where they may and don't lose any sleep over it.

[RE:]

I think personally this what I am reacting to - the idea that this forum should have a unified voice. I don't think it should. That is why I wish to change the name/focus away from any particular person or party. The problem with having a unified voice is that it promotes suppression of difference - anyone who disagrees with the majority opinion is demonized for thinking differently - that has most certainly happened in this forum in the past. This forum should be viewed as a place for discussion, not as the headquarters of some political movement/group where everyone must believe the same thing - the latter sounds much like Obamamania to me!

My dear friends, no matter how much you kick and scream, you will have President Uh in 2009.

We did the best we could. We fought till the last minute. There is nothing else we can do but take it to the next step. We can evolve to resume a new role and become the watchdog of the government and the media.

I will not let Obummer and his media crews go easy for the next 4 years.How do both of these bolded statements co-exist?:confused:

[joeysky18]

How do both of these bolded statements co-exist?:confused:

It's my view. And that is Murray view. And other people also have their views.

The bottom line is we don't know what will work best. We will have to evolve, adjust, adapt.

HCF changed many times. In the beginning it was supposed to be a forum for both HRC and BO. It didn't work, so it was changed to focus on HRC inclusively. We didn't get it right on day one. We just had to try.

I think we are going through the same process at this very moment. Just have to try.

[Folamix]

I think the dust settled for me months ago! Which might it explain my total lack of reaction to Obama's win.

I"m talking about the duststorm that is the current topic of this thread.

[RE:]

It's my view. And that is Murray view. And other people also have their views.

The bottom line is we don't know what will work best. We will have to evolve, adjust, adapt.

HCF changed many times. In the beginning it was supposed to be a forum for both HRC and BO. It didn't work, so it was changed to focus on HRC inclusively. We didn't get it right on day one. We just had to try.

I think we are going through the same process at this very moment. Just have to try.

I had no idea that it was an HRC and BO forum...That must have been very interesting....;)

[Meg]

HCF changed many times. In the beginning it was supposed to be a forum for both HRC and BO. It didn't work, so it was changed to focus on HRC inclusively. We didn't get it right on day one. We just had to try.


Seriously? We were almost a forum for both Hill and Obama?:eek:

[sadie]

Maybe I'm daft or something but I can't see how wanting to have an open dicussion with everyone; republicans, democrats and all independents is somehow "falling in line."

Believe I know if some had said, "Now you HAVE to like and support Obama." Then I could understand. But nothing be said is expressing that in anyway.

Opening the discussion isn't what bothered me. It was that almost instantly some on this forum made the decision to accept the results and almost demanded that the rest of us do the same, or "fall in line". That's what it felt like to me and, in the midst of my sadness and anger, I was shocked to see others telling people how they should feel or think. What I appreciated about this forum all along was that, despite the common goal, each of us was allowed to express our individual thoughts or feelings. There were people on here who openly said they were holding their nose and voting for McCain/Palin while others completely supported them. Then, almost minutes after the loss, the openness and tolerance seemed to be gone.

My lack of participation in the forum now has little to do with Muzza. It has to do with the actions of other members that I was not comfortable with. By all means, open this up to people of all political leanings. I'm an Indie and appreciated the interaction with all of you. But I don't like the tone that the forum took after the election was over. And I choose to decrease my participation. That's my choice and should not reflect on the administration of this forum at all.

Whether others have issues with specific people is none of my business. I can only speak for myself.

[Aria]

My dear friends, no matter how much you kick and scream, you will have President Uh in 2009.

We did the best we could. We fought till the last minute. There is nothing else we can do but take it to the next step. We can evolve to resume a new role and become the watchdog of the government and the media.

I will not let Obummer and his media crews go easy for the next 4 years.


Ah! Finally, the voice of reason, reality - and the future! And in so few words! ;)

[joeysky18]

Seriously? We were almost a forum for both Hill and Obama?:eek:

Not almost. We were for a period of time in the beginning. Even the banner had both HRC & BO pictures. Can you imagine that? But we found out that it didn't work so we changed. Same Muzza asked for feedback, and we tried to find a solution.

My point is we didn't get it right on the first day then. And we will not get it right on the first day now. We will evolve, improve, progress, develop together as a group. We will get it right at some point. But we won't get there if we keep resisiting.

PS: did you notice that I tried my best to avoid the word 'change'? I found it so toxic.

[Meg]

Not almost. We were for a period of time in the beginning. Even the banner had both HRC & BO pictures. Can you imagine that? But we found out that it didn't work so we changed. Same Muzza asked for feedback, and we tried to find a solution.

My point is we didn't get it right on the first day then. And we will not get it right on the first day now. We will evolve, improve, progress, develop together as a group. We will get it right at some point. But we won't get there if we keep resisiting.

PS: did you notice that I tried my best to avoid the word 'change'? I found it so toxic.


Oh I gotcha!;) I wasn't here for those days I guess.

Oh I used the word change is sentence in here... creepy!:eek:

[DeLana]

Murray,

you've done a great job with this forum, which has kept me sane through this grueling election season. Of course, the original focus and name have to be changed at this time, and I appreciate that you're asking our input re. name and other issues.

I, for one, love a lively political debate and this can only really happen when people of different viewpoints are present. I'm not afraid of Obots! :rolleyes:

Good luck, I'll be around to see what happens next.

DeLana :)

[joeysky18]

Opening the discussion isn't what bothered me. It was that almost instantly some on this forum made the decision to accept the results and almost demanded that the rest of us do the same, or "fall in line". That's what it felt like to me and, in the midst of my sadness and anger, I was shocked to see others telling people how they should feel or think.

I'm sorry that you feel that way. But I don't remember anyone say that we must support President Uh now. We must accept the fact that he won. But we don't have to think that he is the most suitable one for the job.

So for me, it's not "falling in line". I'm not falling in line. He is the president yeah, but I still think there is a great probability that he will be a lousy president. Therefore, I'm not falling in line.

I just accept the fact that he will be the new president in 2009.

[mjoynaples]

in the last 2-3 weeks, our family church has closed with little or not dialogue with hierarchy and people -very distressing and quite a tearful last service, my aunt died last week -a wonderful woman with great love and caring for our large family growing up, still reeling from Hillary's loss-our loss as a nation and for our world, suffering seriously with the negative second hand airs from the wretched sexism that has permeated this election cycle-it is an outrage this is going on in our country and allowed to get away with not only against Hillary it was further extended to Sarah as well and regardless of party differences the fact that women continue to do this against women is beyond comprehensible in this day and age, finally the night of "our country's loss" when John and Sarah were not elected President and VP, I tried desperately to post and blog with folks here and was completely lost as to what was going on ... still not clear what was happening with the forum and fearing that the HCF was just going to close on NOV 5th lights out was as far as I had been able to comprehend until the night of the 4th when suddenly while trying to hold onto the possibilty of winning I was having to stretch myself to consider "embracing" pro-obama people.. I am sorry to say I couldn't do it (still not that open to the idea... just don't want to go there yet or if ever... I am bitter and angry...and need time to work this through and though that) we-the HCF I thought were going to come up with another committed misison -voter fraud, caucus ending, sexism and return to democracy for and by the people -one person one vote... issues for reform and preparation for the possibilty of Sen. Clinton's 2012 run and or other candidates we wanted to support and encourage...

I got lost in it all and suddenly the place that was a safe haven on difficult election nights of the past was simply not that and I spent most of the night in between crying trying to simply find out if we were even going to be open on the 5th or not...

I do not fully understand what personal thing is going on for you Murray-and I am sorry for that too however, I had a hard time with the instant switch to something new before the election night was over yet and I was stunned... previously I had only recalled that you were going to close possiblyon the 5th and then we would see what we would be -I did think there was some discussion underway however didn't think it was going to happen so quickly... I really appreciate you Murray and am forever indebted to the incredible place this was and hope it will become more incredible - with smart, clear, engaging discussions, political awakening with direction and input for change that is so overdue and needed in this 2 party system that is at best lost!

I will continue to ck in and I need to take some time for the great grief I am experiencing and need a safe place to do that ... hoping for this sanctuary to be recovered once again... again Murray, you and so many here (you know who you are... ) kudos for such fine work and great efforts in this incredibly difficult election season... (still nobama :mad:!)

[lanesharon]

I think the dust settled for me months ago! Which might it explain my total lack of reaction to Obama's win.

And, might also explain your insensitivity to allowing other members of the forum to have the 'dust settle for them' before making any changes to format. They are not you......:rolleyes:

[sadie]

I'm sorry that you feel that way. But I don't remember anyone say that we must support President Uh now. We must accept the fact that he won. But we don't have to think that he is the most suitable one for the job.

So for me, it's not "falling in line". I'm not falling in line. He is the president yeah, but I still think there is a great probability that he will be a lousy president. Therefore, I'm not falling in line.

I just accept the fact that he will be the new president in 2009.

And I wish I could have come to that acceptance so quickly :) I, along with many on here, worked very hard for McCain/Palin and just couldn't believe that it was over. I felt as if I was being ridiculed for ever believing a win was possible and ridiculed for being "in denial". No one walks in my shoes except for me and I have no idea what Tuesday night was like for anyone else, nor would I presume to speak to their experiences. I did not appreciate being told what my experience was or should be.

[joeysky18]

And, might also explain your insensitivity to allowing other members of the forum to have the 'dust settle for them' before making any changes to format. They are not you......:rolleyes:

I think it was a bit too fast as well. But I understand Murray from the praticality standpoint. It is not cheap to maintain the forum in this format. The volunteer services by the moderators are at the breaking point. The forum has to change the burden on the resources both time and money is becoming too great for Murray and the moderators to bear.

On the election night, after moderate the forum all night I went straight to work. It was almost 40 hours before I slept again. We just simply can't go on like this. The format has to change so Murray can hire people or do something with it.

[Mallory]

I would never trash anyone on this forum nor would I critisize you; that said, however, I am not eager to see Obamatrons on the forum for a variety of reasons. Here's a good example... my husband has late stage cancer and went into the hospital on Sunday. He is still in critical condition and can barely speak intelligibly. His two (Obama supporting) daughters came from Seattle to be with us. Unfortunately, they have MSNBC on 24/7... they have been absolutely horrendous in talking about Palin and McCain and still trash Bush at every possible opportunity. Last night the oldest one was SCREAMING at me and called me a RACIST because I had just had enough and asked them to NOT turn on MSNBC anymore and to STOP trashing Palin.

I told her it was not the color of the Obama's skin that bothered me... it was the color of their hearts. Nevertheless, my point is.... if FAMILY is doing this in a time of crisis.... WHAT are Obamatrons going to subject Hillary supporters and non Kool-Aid drinkers to?

I respect your decision, but if I find the kind of animosity and name calling here that is SO SO prevalent on most other boards, I will just quietly go away.

Thanks for the past few months. I've found a great deal of kinship and support here and you've been very important to my surviving the political stress of the past few weeks.
Mallory

[Adayamo]

Sharon, this is not accurate. For WEEKS the FORUM has been discussing this very topic. Thread after thread about "where to next".

I know and I always said that a time-out would be good for anybody.
Emotions are boiling right now.

I've talked with my sister about this who studies psychology. She says this all is very reasonable, though this makes it not less painful for you:

We are all very disappointed. We lost twice in those twelve months but worked SO many hours and many of us even donated money to Hillary or McCain.
Now this election is over and people are sad and angry that we have lost.
But as no one of us can get "in the face" of Obama to tell him what we think about him or grab him to make him pay for our defeat we turn on the very next person there is AND WE FEEL BETRAYED BY.
(We as a whole PUMA group!)

So there are some former members who might feel betrayed by you that you made this change within hours after the election was finished and we lost SO BIG.

Personally I have to say that I am not angry at you, Muzza. I always appreciated what you have done for us with this forum. You gave us a home from where we could fight.
I, however, do not understand what the new forum will be about but as long as it stays out from (and I will use the name because it describes a certain, but large group of Obama's supporters) Obots I'll stay here as well.

[DeLana]

((( Mallory )))

So sorry to hear about your husband, you're in my thoughts.

Hope you stay in the forum, but I understand why you may not (too bad your own stepdaughters aren't more sensitive at such a difficult time!).

DeLana

[Mallory]

((( Mallory )))

So sorry to hear about your husband, you're in my thoughts.

Hope you stay in the forum, but I understand why you may not (too bad your own stepdaughters aren't more sensitive at such a difficult time!).

DeLana

You are most thoughtful and kind and I thank you for your concern and for caring. I will stay on the forum, until (unless?) it deviates into a derogatory slam fest... then I have to go for the sake of sanity!

Thanks again!

[Pepper]

I think it was a bit too fast as well. But I understand Murray from the praticality standpoint. It is not cheap to maintain the forum in this format. The volunteer services by the moderators are at the breaking point. The forum has to change the burden on the resources both time and money is becoming too great for Murray and the moderators to bear.

I understand that joey as many others do. You know many had suggested to make it a pay only site so that Murray would be free of having to pay out of pocket. Yes, the mods, and Murray, have worked their asses off for months which I truly appreciate! I have suggested more mods. That, and the pay only would take a huge burden off of him. I do find that not defering to long-time members before switching the day after the election was not cool. As much as I love Murray, I and others are hurt.

[bevvyjean]

Murray: For what it's worth, I think that I am generally in a bad mood. Anything representing the word "change" which has been crammed down our throat for so long sets my teeth on edge. I just think people need a little more time to get over the disappointments in this sham Presidential Election and give us an opportunity to see the sun come out again. Until then, more patience is required for ALL of us. Thanks again for all your work and understanding.

[CGP]

my husband has late stage cancer and went into the hospital on Sunday. He is still in critical condition and can barely speak intelligibly.

Sorry to hear this. :(

[Borlah]

When I first started lurking around I was so impressed by what was going on The motivation and the action were so inspiring. Somebody always had an idea. There was always something constructive to do. This place had a cause and it's members were committed. It didn't take me long to realize that I wanted to be apart of it and I will always be thankful of and grateful to all my fellow members.

Something changed though and it wasn't on election night. When my kids got out of school in early June and the computer was not mine anymore, I had to take a break from the forum except to peek in when I had a chance to see what the buzz was. I noticed the change when I was able to devote more time here after the conventions. The whole tone here had changed. It was less --"Blog here!" or "Make comments on this article" There were fewer calls to volunteer and take action and more "Look at this." I'm gonna be honest most everything we know about Obama now, I knew this time last year and I believe that many of the forum (when I joined) did as well. The fight to give Hillary a chance in 2012, which is what most of held on to, was muddled by Obama bashing. Don't get me wrong, the very reasons I couldn't support him this time last year are the very same reasons that I can't support him today. Most, if not all of them are true. What I'm saying is the focus was lost. Less action and more reaction was the change. Plan B got derailed.

I ask you to take a look back through the archives and look at what we fought during the primaries. Misogyny, sexism, discrimination, caucus fraud and media bias to name a few. The fight against those things were our cause and we fought them to get Hillary elected. Can't that still be our direction? Isn't that what we passionately fought against? I feel that we can honor her by doing that. Most of us did in a way by finding a place in our hearts for Gov. Palin. Not because we agreed with her beliefs 100% but because we understood what she was up against. We believe that a candidate for any office should be just that- a candidate. Not a woman or a man, not a christian or non-christian, not straight or gay.Just a candidate that's treated fairly regardless.

I keep wanting to say that this forum has lost it's foundation because the common cause is now gone. I realize that it really hasn't. The very same things that we fought so hard against during the primaries showed up again during the general. They will continue to show up until we do what is necessary to make sure they are unacceptable across the board for every candidate and for every issue.

I think a common ground is a good thing. No matter what political affiliation or personal belief any of us hold, we have all see the ugly side of the opposistion and it has given those of us who choose to stand up against that ugliness a commmon cause. If that means standing up against your president, do it! If that means standing with him--do it! That goes for every office in this country from senator to city councilman to PTA president.

There are two things that my dad taught me that I have never forgotten--If someone is doing you wrong you tell them about it and if you are not happy with your representative in government, fire them.

There is a potential in this forum. I have seen it at its best. I understand the need to move forward and I understand what it really means. The fact is Sen. Clinton will most likely never be running president again.

I've always felt that we would be there for her when she runs again for the senate in 2 yrs and also if she called upon her supporters on a specific issue.

In my heart, I know that we share the same beliefs politically and socially as most Obama supporters. Hell, I even love a couple of them:). If we can convince enough of them to realize what they allowed to happen in their desire to "win" was against the core values of the democratic party, I say open the forum up. We have fought the bots before. Why would we shy away from it now when so much is on the line?

That said, Murray we did need a little more time to stew.

Meggles,

I am so glad you are here. It is wonderful to see someone who has just earned the right to vote be so involved. When I was your age, I didn't take my responsibilites as a voter so seriously.

You need to understand something. This is the the third presidential election in a row that most of the forum members here have seen their candidate loose. Correct me please-- You were 2 when Pres. Clinton took office. There are some here that campaigned for him. You were 10 when Al Gore lost to Pres. Bush. There are people here who campaigned for Gore. You were 14 when Kerry challenged Pres. Bush. I know people here campaigned for Kerry.

The members here know how to move on and how to keep fighting without any kind of prodding. When you come upon someone who has a different opinion than you, please take into account that they may have been in this battle far longer than you have and please give the their due respect.

[seawave]

I would never trash anyone on this forum nor would I critisize you; that said, however, I am not eager to see Obamatrons on the forum for a variety of reasons. Here's a good example... my husband has late stage cancer and went into the hospital on Sunday. He is still in critical condition and can barely speak intelligibly. His two (Obama supporting) daughters came from Seattle to be with us. Unfortunately, they have MSNBC on 24/7... they have been absolutely horrendous in talking about Palin and McCain and still trash Bush at every possible opportunity. Last night the oldest one was SCREAMING at me and called me a RACIST because I had just had enough and asked them to NOT turn on MSNBC anymore and to STOP trashing Palin.

I told her it was not the color of the Obama's skin that bothered me... it was the color of their hearts. Nevertheless, my point is.... if FAMILY is doing this in a time of crisis.... WHAT are Obamatrons going to subject Hillary supporters and non Kool-Aid drinkers to?

I respect your decision, but if I find the kind of animosity and name calling here that is SO SO prevalent on most other boards, I will just quietly go away.

Thanks for the past few months. I've found a great deal of kinship and support here and you've been very important to my surviving the political stress of the past few weeks.
Mallory

I just read your post and I am sorry you are going through so much. The stress, worry, and strain you are having has been increased by the visitors from Seattle. In difficult times people sometime react in what appears to be belligerent behavior. Your husband's daughters may be reacting more out of fear and anger then political view. I hope there is someone in your life that is a friend or relative who is a support for you. Someone who will lift you up so you don't have to deal with so much alone. Not everything has changed on this forum. There is still the hand of friendship that extends beyond the written word. It is the concern of your fellow members for you.

[CGP]

Borlah - your post was superb.

Thanks for sharing those insights.

[EH]

Murray...just my two cents: I greatly admired your courage and effort in putting all this together, but if something wasn't broke, there was no need to fix it.

[CGP]

but if something wasn't broke, there was no need to fix it.

My assessment was that it was "broken".

I think Borlah's assessment is right on target.

I enjoyed the forum from February to June when Hillary was active - I enjoyed Plan A.

I loathed Plan B. It didn't involve anything I felt passionate about. It was all negative for me.

Plan A was energizing on a positive level - I was FOR a candidate.

Plan B was not energizing at all for me. Being only AGAINST a candidate was not motivating or mobilzing. I participated only because it was a last ditched-effort at ensuring Hillary's survival for 2012. That's it.

And I think the future must be different. I prefer some of the suggestions mentioned in recent threads about focusing on ISSUES rather than candidates. ISSUES are generic, candidates are not. 100% allegiance to any candidate is never constructive and 100% opposition isn't either.

[Meg]

Meggles,

I am so glad you are here. It is wonderful to see someone who has just earned the right to vote be so involved. When I was your age, I didn't take my responsibilites as a voter so seriously.

You need to understand something. This is the the third presidential election in a row that most of the forum members here have seen their candidate loose. Correct me please-- You were 2 when Pres. Clinton took office. There are some here that campaigned for him. You were 10 when Al Gore lost to Pres. Bush. There are people here who campaigned for Gore. You were 14 when Kerry challenged Pres. Bush. I know people here campaigned for Kerry.

The members here know how to move on and how to keep fighting without any kind of prodding. When you come upon someone who has a different opinion than you, please take into account that they may have been in this battle far longer than you have and please give the their due respect.


I understand that people have invested far more energy, time, and money into this than I did. I have no problem letting people vent their frustrations about Obama being "elected." I was never telling them, "Well he won so just get over it and accept him." No I've just been telling people Obama's "elected" and it won't change. So sitting here hoping he'll be thrown out of office before he steps foot in it isn't exactly the productivity I'd hoped for.

Maybe I assumed to much in that people understood that just because our main focus isn't Obama, that, that means he's not an important subject. He'll be president he's promised many things, and he's given people enough reason to never accept him or his actions... understandable. We can have our members that have been here, continue to look for information if they choose to, they can discuss what it is they don't like Obama still.

But if we really do want to make those differences in media bias, misogyny, sexism, election fraud, or anything else we've discussed these months we have to start regrouping and finding new ways to deal with them. It's not the same as telling someone to "get over it." I knew how emotions were going to be, there was no shock there. The moment though I chose to move on that was not acceptable to some and I immediately became a "bot" a "traitor" and a "troll" That wasn't respect me. I know I lashed out at some people... and I did so understandable. But I was never under the impression that everyone would be happy when Murray decided to change the forum. I guess some people haven't taken into account that Murray has tried to keep this fourm going and productive and lively. If everyone sat here and post after post said the same thing... this place would fail.

As far as I go, I have always had some vague interest in politics, not until Hillary though was my interest heightened. I don't know if you want to call it good guessing or just luck on my part but I from the moment I saw George Bush knew he was going to be a horrible president(sorry to anyone who likes him).I will give him his due on dealing with 9/11 and sending us to Afghanistan, but I can't justify his move to drag us into Iraq. No that said.. I have paid attention the past eight years... I know what it is that occurred with noth the 2000 and the 2004 elections. So that's just me, but I know there are members here that have lived through more than I can imagine... I'm not going to belittle their experiences just to make myslef feel good. I want to start fresh and be able to talk to everyone, not just people who think like me. It's not "falling in line." It's just moving forward.:)

I really need to end my long posts!:eek:

[CGP]

I really need to end my long posts!:eek:

No, long posts are the most interesting.

Too many forums consist soley of threads with thousands of one-line and useless responses.

Substantive responses are always more productive & useful. Though very time-consuming to prepare, yes.

[Meg]

No, long posts are the most interesting.

Too many forums consist soley of threads with thousands of one-line and useless responses.

Substantive responses are always more productive & useful. Though very time-consuming to prepare, yes.


I've written more in this week than the previous 6 months!:p

[Horizon]

I've written more in this week than the previous 6 months!:p

Hell,I think I have contracted Carpal Tunnel this week.;)

[Pepper]

Hell,I think I have contracted Carpal Tunnel this week.;)

LOL. You and Megs go put some IcyHot on your wrists:D

[Meg]

LOL. You and Megs go put some IcyHot on your wrists:D


Ooooh I have some of that too...:p I think I'm getting a stiff neck from all the pent up frustration too!:eek:

[CGP]

LOL. You and Megs go put some IcyHot on your wrists:D

Maybe botox could work also??!

Botox is used to loosen up just about anything these days!!

[seawave]

Mary and Meggles this is a week we will all remember. I dare say it isn't the best week in our lives. It ranks along side of some of the most turbulent days I have dealt with. Your posts have helped keep me focused.

[RE:]

Maybe botox could work also??!

Botox is used to loosen up just about anything these days!!

Loosen? I thought it tightened and numbed...

[Meg]

Maybe botox could work also??!

Botox is used to loosen up just about anything these days!!

I thought it was for "tightening" See Murray now you have me all confused!:D

Mary and Meggles this is a week we will all remember. I dare say it isn't the best week in our lives. It ranks along side of some of the most turbulent days I have dealt with. Your posts have helped keep me focused.


Awws you're one of the very few people to say that too me... seriously!:p

Mary and I try.. but even we have our moments of "spaztasticness".;)

[CGP]

Loosen? I thought it tightened and numbed...

Oh gosh, I don't know now!

[Borlah]

Let's "go" between me and you meggles. How do we stop media bias? What do we do about the media carring more about what Paris Hilton had on and more about what Sarah Palin had to say?

[Horizon]

Oh gosh, I don't know now!

Well,Hell.Just look at Cindy McCains face.Botox at it's best

Joe Biden's forehead.Botox at it's worst.

[seawave]

Well,Hell.Just look at Cindy McCains face.Botox at it's best

Joe Biden's forehead.Botox at it's worst.

Mary You are so funny!! I will never be able to look at Joe Biden's forehead again. :D

[Meg]

Let's "go" between me and you meggles. How do we stop media bias? What do we do about the media carring more about what Paris Hilton had on and more about what Sarah Palin had to say?


Ugh.. Paris Hilton. Don't even get me started on her...:rolleyes:

Well let me just say I probably wouldn't really care what Sarah had to say unless it was possibly about alternative energy. She not a personal fav when it comes to issues.

But when say "focus on her words" are we talking about her speeches and talking points or her gaffes. Because those get treated WAY differently.

[Horizon]

Mary and Meggles this is a week we will all remember. I dare say it isn't the best week in our lives. It ranks along side of some of the most turbulent days I have dealt with. Your posts have helped keep me focused.

Mary You are so funny!! I will never be able to look at Joe Biden's forehead again. :D

LOL!!! Thank you for you nice words for Meg and I.It's been a wild week,for sure.

[mondayblues]

I think I understand what you are trying to say and your decision is really the final one because you own this site. But the problem happening in this forum is that the transition happened to quickly.

A few hours after Obama won, people who several members complained against started coming in here freely. While you may have known deep in your heart that Mccain will lose, there are those who desperately hoped otherwise and had their hearts broken by the loss.

Now a mere hours after Obama was declared the winner, this forum opened its doors to the same people that it fought against for months. Many of the members were at a loss. They cannot express their emotions openly anymore without fear of being bashed or contested because this forum is 'open'. There are others who were confused that people could just change their stripes so easily. How can those who spent months disliking Obama and learning about his corruption suddenly say that they are hopeful about him? It doesn't compute.

This forum and its members needed time to grief and hang on to their support group. And it is unfortunate that it did not happen that way.

[CGP]

I think I understand what you are trying to say and your decision is really the final one because you own this site. But the problem happening in this forum is that the transition happened to quickly.

A few hours after Obama won, people who several members complained against started coming in here freely. While you may have known deep in your heart that Mccain will lose, there are those who desperately hoped otherwise and had their hearts broken by the loss.

Now a mere hours after Obama was declared the winner, this forum opened its doors to the same people that it fought against for months. Many of the members were at a loss. They cannot express their emotions openly anymore without fear of being bashed or contested because this forum is 'open'. There are others who were confused that people could just change their stripes so easily. How can those who spent months disliking Obama and learning about his corruption suddenly say that they are hopeful about him? It doesn't compute.

This forum and its members needed time to grief and hang on to their support group. And it is unfortunate that it did not happen that way.

A few inaccuracies to correct.

1. The forum is not currently "open". It was open for a few hours briefly after the election & then promptly closed.

2. Who said members cannot express their emotions openly anymore? No-one. It's not true. People have been doing it daily since the election, without being criticized. Nothing has changed in that regard.

3. Did anyone demand people express hope & love for Obama? No. Is it a requirement to do so in order to participate here? No.

I don't get it. So many myths floating about, so few facts. That's the problem here.

[Meg]

A few inaccuracies to correct.

1. The forum is not currently "open". It was open for a few hours briefly after the election & then promptly closed.

2. Who said members cannot express their emotions openly anymore? No-one. It's not true. People have been doing it daily since the election, without being criticized.

3. Did anyone demand people express hope & love for Obama? No.

I don't get it.

Those 3 points aren't being understood... just quit trying to explain it. At least for your sanity!;)

[CGP]

Those 3 points aren't being understood... just quit trying to explain it. At least for your sanity!;)

The fueling of myths is very difficult to contain.

You are right, continuously trying to restate the facts is proving tiresome & not seemingly make any difference to people who believe differently - even in spite of the facts presented to them.

[Horizon]

The fueling of myths is very difficult to contain.

You are right, continuously trying to restate the facts is proving tiresome & not seemingly make any difference to people who believe differently - even in spite of the facts presented to them.

I am trying really hard.No,I didn't garden today,but I didn't hang out here all day either.

[mondayblues]

2. Who said members cannot express their emotions openly anymore? No-one. It's not true. People have been doing it daily since the election, without being criticized.

3. Did anyone demand people express hope & love for Obama? No.

2. Of course they can but at times when they do so someone comes in and says something like its all going to be OK...give Obama the benefit of a doubt etc ect. From my point of view, just let people vent without talking about a future with Obama because people here spent months trying avoid that.

3. No one demanded but people posted their 'love' and 'hope' for Obama...some of those people spent months trashing him. And now that he won they are hopeful despite what they have learned about him? It's a little strange for most people. And for others it seems like this forum led them on.

I think the reason why you and others are not getting your message across is because you are forgetting the tone that has been set for the last few months. For the longest time this place has been anti-Obama and how the same pepole who crusaded against him in this forum is expressing hope for him. For many it just doesn't compute. And for those who are probably Republican or Independent, they will just shake their heads and say this is a 'democrat' forum and leave.

[CGP]

For the longest time this place has been anti-Obama and how the same pepole who crusaded against him in this forum is expressing hope for him.

For example, which members? Maybe they would like to defend themselves rather than being anonymously included in some group which does not even exist.

I haven't not seen one long-term member (active in recent months) express "hope" and lavish praise on Obama. I know I certainly haven't. Yes, some who hadn't post in MONTHS did express positive sentiments after he won but that's not surprising at all given that such positive statements were not being tolerated by anyone following Plan B in the months preceding the election.

There have been some who have said they are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt or who have said they "given up" the war against him. Is that the same as expressing "hope" and "praise" for Obama. No. Not at all. Does that mean they are surrendering the fight for justice & falling in line with the crowd intoxicated by Obama? No. Not at all.

This is what happens when extremist positions are held so tightly - it becomes impossible to see reason/logic or the midpoint. It's the gas which fuels all wars.

[ZY123]

A few inaccuracies to correct.

1. The forum is not currently "open". It was open for a few hours briefly after the election & then promptly closed.

2. Who said members cannot express their emotions openly anymore? No-one. It's not true. People have been doing it daily since the election, without being criticized. Nothing has changed in that regard.

3. Did anyone demand people express hope & love for Obama? No. Is it a requirement to do so in order to participate here? No.

I don't get it. So many myths floating about, so few facts. That's the problem here.

When people get so involved in seeing only one point of view for such a long time any little fluttering that is not point on with what they want to hear tends to be seen as being "against" them even if it isn't. This is what groupthink is about....I read an interesting article once saying that was part of the reason the problems with the Space Shuttle Challenger got ignored and not fixed...the group was afraid to question each other and refused to look at objective positions.

[CGP]

When people get so involved in seeing only one point of view for such a long time any little fluttering that is not point on with what they want to hear tends to be seen as being "against" them even if it isn't. This is what groupthink is about....I read an interesting article once saying that was part of the reason the problems with the Space Shuttle Challenger got ignored and not fixed...the group was afraid to question each other and refused to look at objective positions.

Extremism leads to a total inability to view situations objectively.

That is why I will never, ever again throw my 100% support behind any political candidate again.

I wish to regain a certain degree of detachment from the entire situation & thereby have a great capacity to view things objectively without feeling compelled to align myself with "the cause/group".

[Kbentleyis]

I haven't been as productive on the forum lately. Personally trying to come to terms with the outcome of the election. I must say I was rather surprised when I saw a few threads written by BHO supporters. I certainly didn't like what I saw.

Murray, you like many here have talked about your emotional settlement and the acceptance with the election of BHO. I really admire those who do so; as in Hillary supporting him. Her reasons still leave many of us in wonder.

Now, I ask you and many on this forum, why can't you accept Prop. 8? It's a done deal and you all should just accept the law of the land whether it is wrong?

It comes down to integrity in each individual. If one doesn't stand up for human ethics, then what do they stand for? If it is so easy to accept the inevitable, then why attack issues on GLBT rights?

It takes individual strength to fight injustice and never to accept those who pander it. The base of this forum was honor, respect, and to hold high ethics among it's members. Is that still here within the forum?

[CGP]

Murray, you like many here have talked about your emotional settlement and the acceptance with the election of BHO. I really admire those who do so; as in Hillary supporting him. Her reasons still leave many of us in wonder.

Now, I ask you and many on this forum, why can't you accept Prop. 8? It's a done deal and you all should just accept the law of the land whether it is wrong?


Does acceptance of an outcome/result automatically imply one agrees with or is no longer willing to express opposition to it? No.

Have I accepted Obama won? Yes. Do I still feel able to criticize him & critique his politics? Absolutely. Does accepting the result mean I have "fallen in line"? No.

Have I accepted Proposition 8 passed? Yes. Do I still feel able to express dissapointment & criticize those who supported it? Absolutely. Does accepting the result mean I have "fallen in line"? No.

I don't see the problem. Clearly, I must be missing something.

Again, myths have a life of their own. And sometimes stating facts has no impact when people have an investment in believing the myths.

[CGP]

It takes individual strength to fight injustice and never to accept those who pander it. The base of this forum was honor, respect, and to hold high ethics among it's members. Is that still here within the forum?

Yes.

It also takes strength & honor to end one's participation in a WAR and to attempt to find common ground for the benefit of all.

It is possible to simulataneously fight injustice & not participate in ongoing wars. Yes, it is possible. Actually, combatting injustice in a war-like manner seems counterproductive. Finding a common ground as a method for addressing injustice seems like a more constructive, productive, and less emotionally-draining method of action.

[foxyladi]

Murray, I've been trying to stay out of the drama (I get plenty of it on another website, where I'm an admin). Anyway, I am still here with you. I trust you to do what you think is best. Those who are unhappy with the changes will go elsewhere, while others will join once the registration re-opens. I'm interested to see what happens. I look on this as another chapter in the adventures of 2008.

Hang in there, kiddo.

will do.....

[Les33]

Murray, you really aren't getting it. If the majority of people's opinions and honest reactions to an obvious change in the atmosphere of a place are something you simply refuse to acknowledge or give any credence to, or persist in labeling a "myth", I certainly don't support what you're doing. What it sounds like now is someone defensively maintaining an unpopular position because he refuses to consider that perhaps he made an insensitive move. You can call this "trashing" you, but it's not. You don't seem to be able to accept criticism. A few people have gone overboard in expressing displeasure, but most have not. The abandoning ship of so many is a clear indication that the change of direction, which DEFINITELY occurred the evening of the election, was too sudden for most. It is what it is. No amount of defensive justification will alter that. People wanted to rehash the election and commiserate and regroup to fight the new battles, and, yes, have strict moderation of pro-Obama expression as they'd come to rely on, and which vanished that evening. Which was an IMMENSE change.

[Les33]

Go to the Confluence to see an example of a site that DIDN'T change course due to the election result. http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/

The people there are certainly disappointed, but they're together and going through it as a group. The argument that people are taking out their frustrations at an Obama victory on this Forum doesn't hold weight, in my opinion. The frustration is that there's no longer a solidified community. What some are dismissing as "groupthink" was also a supportive community. I'm all for inclusion and have bristled more than once at people calling each other "trolls" over the months in here, but this is a specific situation of people craving their community, however flawed.

[ggreen]

Personally I think a lot of the current unrest here is due to the fact that we're in a state of limbo as we await decisions, appointments, and actions by the new administration. Once we start seeing some of this, we should have issues to debate.

I haven't posted anything of substance lately, because there really isn't much to say. I've had all the feelings of anger, frustration, fear and dread about the upcoming years. Yet, I can't tell you how "the dust will settle" in my own head, much less here. For me it's always the unknown that causes the most turmoil in my head. I now know who will be president, so while that has been settled, I'm waiting to see what else it all means and will determine my feelings and actions as these become apparent.

I do know I'll put energy into the 2010 congressional races to bring back the checks and balance kind of government I believe in.

At the risk of repetition, I will say I misunderstood the timeframe that Admin had in mind. From discussions leading up to the election, I gathered there would be a bit of a break soon after Nov 4, and then registration would open up. Now, understanding that Muzza was ready to transition a while ago, explains his actions. I thought choosing a forum name and determining direction were to be accomplished first.

Thanks for letting me put my two cents worth in and though I'm not sure who will be here (including myself), I suspect in the weeks to come the forum will find its way and be as interesting and effective as ever.
_

[foxyladi]

Considering 95% of Online Obama supporters are absolute drones, then I am not sure how it would benefit this forum.

stamp

[foxyladi]

I've told you before, although I don't agree with all your decisions, I support you. You've been there for us for so long. I know that emotions are high and it may take some time for people to adjust to the new forum, but I think things will eventually settle down. :)

for sure...

[foxyladi]

it,s going to take time to adjust..

[foxyladi]

My dear friends, no matter how much you kick and scream, you will have President Uh in 2009.

We did the best we could. We fought till the last minute. There is nothing else we can do but take it to the next step. We can evolve to resume a new role and become the watchdog of the government and the media.

I will not let Obummer and his media crews go easy for the next 4 years.

you said.it..:mad::mad::mad:

[CGP]

Thanks for letting me put my two cents worth in and though I'm not sure who will be here (including myself), I suspect in the weeks to come the forum will find its way and be as interesting and effective as ever.
_

Thanks for sharing your thoughts & yes I think the forum will settle into a new identity in due course. Time is of the essence in this regard!

[CGP]

I know the trashing of me by some will continue for a while, but I hope in due course enough people will realize the postive intentions/aims behind the planned changes, and that over time people will start to prefer the new way of operating.

[lanesharon]

Honestly, I think that this post should be closed. It is turned into a real pathetic example of what your new concept is supposed to be about.

[CGP]

Honestly, I think that this post should be closed. It is turned into a real pathetic example of what your new concept is supposed to be about.

No. Let is stand. It seems enough people have wanted to comment on the topic, so let it be.

[Mrsawd]

they say all safe havens will come to an end ! Communism will take control !

[CGP]

they say all safe havens will come to an end ! Communism will take control !

Oh Mrsawd, cmon.

I think you are safe.

[Bacio83]

To be frank, I think your forum was overtaken by a couple of moderators with their own ideals and rules. Well now they have their own little place so they can sit around and agree with everything 100% STAMP! and not be bothered by Obots or those with differing opinions. What a great place to agree with yourself and carbon copies of yourself. I like a debate meself. If I wanted people to kiss my ass or stamp everything I say or have little peons following me around saying they agree with everything I type, well, I su'ppose I could go over to DU. :-)

This is your forum and you pay the bills. You created something and people came. They will come again. Trust.

Maybe, but it's posts like this that turn me away from this forum now. Like minded people are now and I'm paraphrasing here "lemmings." Many of us agreed to disagree and decided to put our differences aside for a common goal. It was always about Hillary. I knew from the begining it could never be BO for me. Some people disagreed and left for a while, others were allowed in for a common goal that the vocal majority shared. If Murray you didn't want to be privy to this you should have said so and told us to make another forum to be rid of it and save your insanity. You didn't, which makes me go hmmm..

So what we used "Stamp" to show we agreed... who cares, is it possible that we can agree/disagree sometimes and also have calm discussions. I think the whole other board now is the best thing to happen. If people can't be here anymore than there's nothing really that can stop a new movement to form. It just seems the old "you're either with us or against us." Has been enacted and those who said 'fine see ya' are now being called out. I just think the woe is me threads are disingenuous don't tell us not to take these boards seriously and then complain about people 'who say fine' and leave.

When you make a bold statement like changing an entire board name and structure you're gonna loose people like me for instance who don't see a point staying.

[CGP]

I was just getting ready to close this thread as your post appeared...

I will wait a bit longer.

[Kathy1980]

Murray, I'm sorry if you are being trashed. I would never speak badly of you. That said, I am incredibly sad and angry that Obama won...not won, but CHEATED, LIED and BAMBOOZLED his way into the WH. I cannot stand BO, and I'll just say it, I cannot stand the people who were dumb enough to put our great country in peril by voting for that evil, lying jackass. I don't have any desire to debate with Obots so I doubt I will be posting or reading much. This is your forum and you have to do what you have to do. No hard feelings to you but you Obot voting fools can suck it.

[CGP]

Enough with this one.

I have vented and enough others have too.

Moving on. :)

Locked.