4-7-09: "Licensed to kill? Gunmen in killings had permits" (AP/FOXNews.com)

[ImmaSlave4U]

Enough is enough. I am outraged by the senseless deaths in these mass shootings...but more so, because Congress fails to act to prevent them.


They had more in common than unleashing carnage — nearly every gunman in this monthlong series of mass killings was legally entitled to fire his weapons.

So what does that say about the state of gun control laws in this country? One thing appears certain: the regulations aren't getting stricter. Many recent efforts to change weapons laws have been about easing them.

Despite eight rampages that have claimed 57 lives since March 10, "it hasn't sparked any national goal to deal with this epidemic. In fact, it's going the other way," said Scott Vogel of the Freedom States Alliance, a gun control activist group.

Even President Barack Obama has felt that sway. Last month, 65 House Democrats said they would block any attempt to resurrect an expired federal ban against assault weapons.

The pro-gun Democrats, led by Rep. Mike Ross of Arkansas, wrote Attorney General Eric Holder saying they opposed not only a ban on military-style guns, but also efforts "to pass any similar law."

Gun control issues would only produce "a long and divisive fight," they said, at a time when Congress should be focused on the roiling economy.

A few states are trying to loosen gun restrictions. In the Texas Capitol — where legislators can carry guns — bills easily passed the Senate in recent weeks that would allow employees to bring weapons to work as long as they leave them locked in their cars, and let those packing heat off the legal hook if they walked into a bar that didn't have signs saying guns weren't allowed inside.

The state also is considering allowing students licensed to carry a concealed weapon — there are about 300,000 such adults in Texas — to bring guns on campus.

Kansas plans to put a measure on its 2010 ballot that would rewrite the state constitution to make gun ownership a personal, rather than collective, right. In Tennessee, lawmakers made progress this month toward allowing guns to be carried in state and local parks.

"I think you're seeing a continuing change of culture," Vogel said. "I think the gun lobby wants to take away any stigma to gun ownership. I think they feel emboldened, like who's going to stop them?"

The National Rifle Association, the country's most powerful gun lobbying group, declined to comment this week on gun control laws. "Now is not the time to debate politics or discuss policy. It is time for families and communities to grieve and to heal," it said in a prepared statement.

Groups such as Vogel's, and the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, say existing laws are already too weak — just look at the men who received gun permits, legally bought high-powered weapons, and then mowed down family, friends and total strangers in these past few weeks, they say.

Joining their outrage was the U.S. Conference of Mayors. "How many more gun-related acts of violence must we experience before the nation's leaders will decide that it is time to act?" asked president Manuel Diaz, mayor of Miami.

Gun enthusiasts say there is no way to prevent human beings from committing insane acts — whether they have a gun permit or not. And studies conflict on whether stricter gun laws lessen gun violence.

On Friday, a depressed and angry Jiverly Wong used a 9 mm and .45-caliber handgun to kill 13 immigrants and service center employees in Binghamton, N.Y., police said. Earlier that day, the ethnic Chinese immigrant from Vietnam mailed an envelope to a Syracuse television station. In it were his gun permit, photos of him smiling while hoisting shiny, big handguns, and his driver's license.

Questions have been raised over the upstate New York gun permit issued to Wong in 1997. Two years later, he was reported to state police by an informer who claimed Wong was planning a bank heist to feed a crack-cocaine habit. Unlike other areas of the state, including New York City, Wong's Broome County permit did not have to be renewed.

Local authorities, however, have broad discretion in reviewing and revoking such permits, according to legal experts. Especially when it comes to drug use, criminal behavior and violence.

"In retrospect, this is probably not a guy who should have had a gun," said attorney Jeffrey Chamberlain, a former Rochester prosecutor and chief counsel to the New York State Police. "No one likes to see things fall through the cracks and it looks like this guy fell through the cracks."

Binghamton police chief Joseph Zikuski said Tuesday that no robbery occurred and there was no merit to review Wong's gun permit.

In New York City, gun permits are reissued every three years.

Yet, regulations differ only slightly between states, Chamberlain said. "They're fairly typical — don't be a felon, don't be a drunk, don't beat your kids or your wife. Don't be so mentally unbalanced that you need be in an institution."

To Chamberlain, the answer to gun violence lies not in stricter regulations, but in answering the question, "Why are we so tolerant of having guns in this country? The answer to that is historical. We've had guns for a very long time.

"I can't think of any sweeping law change that would address that."

To Vogel, the answer to why atrocities happen in places such as Binghamton, and before that Washington state and Santa Clara, Calif., lies in sheer numbers.

The number 280 million, to be precise, the estimated total of every gun in this country.

"When you have that many guns, those guns are going to be used in horrific ways," Vogel said. "There's just too many. Inevitably, somehow, some way, those weapons are going to be used in an egregious way."


http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2009Apr07/0,4670,LegalGunmen,00.html

[Brooke]

Imma, what is Congress supposed to do? Nobody can prevent these things. Did you not read the other thread you started? If these people had permits, there's nothing that can be done.

You can't take away people's guns, I know you'd like to. I hate guns too, I was never even allowed to have toy guns as a kid. But we have this thing called the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION and the 2nd Amendment allows for gun ownership. Most people don't use guns to kill.

[ImmaSlave4U]

Imma, what is Congress supposed to do?...there's nothing that can be done.


"ClintonFan", There's much more that we can do to prevent gun violence in America. Like I said before, Congress can do things like pass common sense gun laws that require Brady criminal background checks on all gun sales, including those at gun shows. Congress can limit the bulk sale of guns that feed illegal gun trafficking and keep military-style assault weapons with high capacity ammunition magazines off our streets. Something CAN be done about it.

Speaking of the Brady background checks, here's a little clip of President Clinton discussing the effects of Jim and Sarah Brady's efforts to reduce gun violence and the successful legislative measures that were taken during his presidency.

YouTube - President Clinton on Jim and Sarah Brady


You can't take away people's guns, I know you'd like to. I hate guns too, I was never even allowed to have toy guns as a kid. But we have this thing called the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION and the 2nd Amendment allows for gun ownership. Most people don't use guns to kill.


Like both Hillary and Bill Clinton, I strongly support banning military-style semi-automatic assault weapons along with high-capacity ammunition magazines. These dangerous weapons have no sporting or civilian use. Their combat features are appropriate to military, not civilian, contexts.

[Tybee]

Aren't gun shows subject to Federal, State and local laws?

[Laura Cereta]

Like both Hillary and Bill Clinton, I strongly support banning military-style semi-automatic assault weapons along with high-capacity ammunition magazines. These dangerous weapons have no sporting or civilian use. Their combat features are appropriate to military, not civilian, contexts.

Well, the whole point of citizens having the right to be armed with military style weapons is that one, they are able to protect themselves and their families and two, these are the type of weapons that would be needed if the worst case scenario happens and the government in its current form must be abolished. That's what the founders had mind.

I agree with ClintonFan-- sometimes horrible atrocities will happen in the world and of course, it's upsetting and disturbing. We can't just abolish the 2nd Amendment, though; it is there for our protection.

[Brooke]

Well, the whole point of citizens having the right to be armed with military style weapons is that one, they are able to protect themselves and their families and two, these are the type of weapons that would be needed if the worst case scenario happens and the government in its current form must be abolished. That's what the founders had mind.

I agree with ClintonFan-- sometimes horrible atrocities will happen in the world and of course, it's upsetting and disturbing. We can't just abolish the 2nd Amendment, though; it is there for our protection.

Our founding fathers were thinking about the muskets they were using, not the semi automatic weapons that exist today.

[Laura Cereta]

Our founding fathers were thinking about the muskets they were using, not the semi automatic weapons that exist today.

LOL! Very true and you make a good point, but I think the principles behind the Constitution stand true and clear even though technology has advanced.

This whole thing doesn't appear it will go anywhere anyway. The Supreme Court already ruled that the 2nd Amendment applies to citizens and not just the military. Any challenge of assault weapons will end right back up in court.

[Brooke]

I just find it hypocritical when these raving liberals are so quick to chastize Bush and Cheney for their flagrant disregard for the Constitution, yet want to do away with the 2nd Amendment. I mean, come on now, I'm just as much of a Democrat as anyone, but I can even recognize that.

[The_Basseteer]

Our founding fathers were thinking about the muskets they were using, not the semi automatic weapons that exist today.
Yeah, but a lot of those muskets were/are .50-.75 caliber...are you sure you want to allow large caliber weapons like that? There were bills written to ban large caliber weapons like the Barret 50...but surprise, surprise this also included black powder muzzle loading weapons... hey to the left a gun is a gun..next on the list crossbows, compound bows and the atel atel (http://fcit.usf.edu/FLORIDA/photos/native/weapon/weapon.htm).

[lanney]

One diehard liberal had very different logic. Guns and abortions are helping planet.

[Suzan]

A few states are trying to loosen gun restrictions. In the Texas Capitol — where legislators can carry guns — bills easily passed the Senate in recent weeks that would allow employees to bring weapons to work as long as they leave them locked in their cars, and let those packing heat off the legal hook if they walked into a bar that didn't have signs saying guns weren't allowed inside.

The state also is considering allowing students licensed to carry a concealed weapon — there are about 300,000 such adults in Texas — to bring guns on campus.

Good freaking grief. While they're at it why don't they just arrange the students in a circular firing squad and let them shoot at each other?

[Suzan]

Yeah, but a lot of those muskets were/are .50-.75 caliber...are you sure you want to allow large caliber weapons like that? There were bills written to ban large caliber weapons like the Barret 50...but surprise, surprise this also included black powder muzzle loading weapons... hey to the left a gun is a gun..next on the list crossbows, compound bows and the atel atel (http://fcit.usf.edu/FLORIDA/photos/native/weapon/weapon.htm).
If by "left" you mean liberals, this isn't true. Many--left, right and center--have advocated against assault weapons while advocating for 2nd amendment rights.

[Laura Cereta]

Good freaking grief. While they're at it why don't they just arrange the students in a circular firing squad and let them shoot at each other?

Well, as someone who was a student when the VA massacre happened, I took part in a protest act where I along with many others in various states, wore an empty holster to class. We were protesting our inability to protect ourselves in environments that can turn dangerous and deadly because someone didn't take their medication or whatever their reasoning is.

[The_Basseteer]

Good freaking grief. While they're at it why don't they just arrange the students in a circular firing squad and let them shoot at each other?

You know...there's a lot more involved in getting a CCW than just paying you money, you have to demonstrate that your awareness of weapon safety, you have to undergo a background check by the state department of public safety, you have to pass a written test demonstrating you knowledge of the laws relating to concealed carry and you have to demonstrate that you can hit what you are aiming at. Additionally if you have any history of domestic violence in your background you cannot get a permit.


CONCEALED CARRY
Facts & Statistics (http://www.azccw.com/More%20Facts%20&%20Statistics.htm)

Today, there are only 5 states that do not have a right-to-carry system.

States with right-to-carry laws have lower overall violent crime rates, compared to states without right-to-carry laws. In states whose laws respect the citizen's right-to-carry guns for self defense the total violent crime is 13% lower, homicide is 3% lower, robbery is 26% lower and aggravated assault is 7% lower. (Data: Crime in the United States 1996, FBI Uniform Crime Reports)

Right-to-carry license holders are more law-abiding than the general public. In Florida, for example, the firearm crime rate among license holders, annually averaging only several crimes per 100,000 licensees, is a fraction of the rate for the state as a whole. Since the carry law went into effect in 1987, less than 0.02% of Florida carry permits have been revoked because of gun crimes committed by license holders. (Florida Dept. of State) Research reports printed in "More Guns, Less Crime", John R. Lott, Jr., the John M. Olin Visiting Law and Economics Fellow at the University of Chicago, examined data ranging from gun ownership polls to FBI crime rate data for each of the nation's 3.045 counties over a 1977 too 1994 time span. Lott's research amounts to the largest data set that has ever been put together for any study of crime, let alone for the study of gun control. Among Prof. Lott's findings:

• While arrest and conviction rates being the most important factors influencing crime.... non discretionary concealed-handgun laws are also important, and they are the most cost-effective means of reducing crime.

• Non discretionary or "shall-issue" carry permit laws reduce violent crime for two reasons. They reduce the number of attempted crimes because criminals can't tell which potential victims are armed, being able to defend themselves. Secondly, victims who do have guns are in a much better position to defend themselves. Concealed carry laws deter crime because they increase the criminal's risk of doing business.

• States with the largest increases in gun ownership also have the largest decreases in violent crime. And, it is high crime, urban areas, and neighborhoods with large minority populations that experience the greatest reductions in violent crime when law-abiding citizens are allowed to carry concealed handguns.

• There is a strong relationship between the number of law-abiding citizens with permits and the crime rate--as more people obtain permits there is a greater decline in violent crime rates.

• For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3%, rape by 2% and robberies by more than 2%.

• Murder rates decline when either more women or more men carry concealed handguns, but the effect is especially pronounced for women. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for women by about three to four times more than an additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduces the rate for men.

• The benefits of concealed handguns are not limited to those who carry them. Others get a free ride from the crime fighting efforts of their fellow citizens.

• The benefits of right-to-carry are not limited to people who share the characteristics of those who carry the guns. The most obvious example of this "halo" effect, is the drop in murders of children following the adoption of non discretionary laws. Arming older people not only may provide direct protection to these children, but also causes criminals to leave the area.

• The increased presence of concealed handguns "does not raise the number of accidental deaths or suicides from handguns."

[Bluecat6]

Like both Hillary and Bill Clinton, I strongly support banning military-style semi-automatic assault weapons along with high-capacity ammunition magazines. These dangerous weapons have no sporting or civilian use. Their combat features are appropriate to military, not civilian, contexts.

In the words of Suzanna Gratia-Hupp: "The second amendment is not about duck hunting...it about all of our rights to protect ourselves from all you guys up there." As she points at congressmen.

The right to bear arms is to be able to bear arms that will kill people.
The term "assualt rifle" is all but meaningless. Fully automatic rifles are illegal. Semi-automatic rifles are very common in hunting. Semi-automatics are rarely converted to fully automatic. What is the definition of an "assualt rifle". Even the ATF testifying in front of congress could not provide a useful description.

Also, as Ms. Hupp said in her testimony to congress - "It does not matter if a clip has 1 bullet or 100 it takes 1 sec to switch it out. And that is not enough time rush someone."

The Truth about "Assault Weapons" video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0&feature=related

[Bubba Grizzly]

Just did a quick search... You can too.


There were 16,885 alcohol-related fatalities in 2005 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.
2005 43,443 16,885 39%

Suicides accounted for 55 percent of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths in 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

There was nothing unique about that year — gun-related suicides have outnumbered firearm homicides and accidents for 20 of the last 25 years. In 2005, homicides accounted for 40 percent of gun deaths. Accidents accounted for 3 percent. The remaining 2 percent included legal killings, such as when police do the shooting, and cases that involve undetermined intent.

2005 31,000 13,950 40%

So according to this, we should ban alcohol and motor vehicles. even though we need a license to drive.....

So where does it end

[The_Basseteer]

The Truth about "Assault Weapons"


......and The Truth shall set you free. Except truth and logic are in short supply.
Bluecat, how do you "FEEL" about that?:rotfl:

[The_Basseteer]

Just did a quick search... You can too.


There were 16,885 alcohol-related fatalities in 2005 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.
2005 43,443 16,885 39%

Suicides accounted for 55 percent of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths in 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

There was nothing unique about that year — gun-related suicides have outnumbered firearm homicides and accidents for 20 of the last 25 years. In 2005, homicides accounted for 40 percent of gun deaths. Accidents accounted for 3 percent. The remaining 2 percent included legal killings, such as when police do the shooting, and cases that involve undetermined intent.

2005 31,000 13,950 40%

So according to this, we should ban alcohol and motor vehicles. even though we need a license to drive.....

So where does it end

One thing not mentioned in the gun death statistics is that justified shootings by Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) are lumped in with them, as is shooting by someone defending themselves in an attack. I'm going to have to look up the stats on one bad guy shooting another..and really in that regard...who the (insert French word for seal here) cares?

[Bubba Grizzly]

One thing not mentioned in the gun death statistics is that justified shootings by Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) are lumped in with them, as is shooting by someone defending themselves in an attack. I'm going to have to look up the stats on one bad guy shooting another..and really in that regard...who the (insert French word for seal here) cares?

Odds are, the "Bad on Bad" shootings are lumped in the 40%. Thus lowering that number. On the other hand, when have we heard of a drunk driver taking out another.... And don't get me wrong, I will not hand over my bottle of Rum no matter what. I just wont get behind the wheel.

[The_Basseteer]

One More Comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abovetopsecret.com%2Fforum%2 Fthread453292%2Fpg1&feature=player_embedded

...and an intresting map of where those shootings occur

with Hat-Tips to AboveTopSecret.com

[Bluecat6]

......and The Truth shall set you free. Except truth and logic are in short supply.
Bluecat, how do you "FEEL" about that?:rotfl:

I feel that guns are and will be part of the American culture forever. I feel that Suzanna Gupp is 100% correct in her comments to congress and in her speeches. I feel personal firearms are the last line of defense for individuals against criminal individuals and rogue government. As such the ownership of firearms is a key right to preserve freedom of people.

I feel that it is too easy to blame 'the machinery' when these tragic events occur.

I am not a gun owner. But myself and my family are trained in the handling and use of firearms. I feel that firearm safty training should be manditory in schools. People and kids will come into contact with firearms just like they will come into contact with drugs, tobacco, sex, etc. before they are 18. With proper training they will be perfectly safe.

Finally, I feel that gun control is used to control the most vunerable of our society. Most large cities have the most strict of gun control. Yet that is where the most gun violence occurs on a nightly basis. The gun control backers use gun control to keep people in 'victim' status. I feel that that inner city single moms in the projects should be trained and form their own 'militias' since 'the government' has abandoned them and left them on their own for day to day safety. This is why individuals need the right bear arms. "Well regulated mulitias" in the ghettos and inner city projects of this country would probably put an end to decades old problem rather quickly.

[The_Basseteer]

"Well regulated mulitias" in the ghettos and inner city projects of this country would probably put an end to decades old problem rather quickly.

Hey that's what worked out in Iraq, when the tribal leaders got together with Allied forces and decided that enough was enough for Al Qaida in Iraq.