(04/30/09) "Public Takes Conservative Turn on Gun Control, Abortion" (Pew Research)

[Spang]

Public attitudes on a pair of contentious national issues -- gun control and abortion -- have moved in a more conservative direction over the past year. In both cases, the changes have been driven in part by relatively large shifts among men, while opinions among women have not changed very much.

For the first time in a Pew Research survey, nearly as many people believe it is more important to protect the right of Americans to own guns (45%) than to control gun ownership (49%). As recently as a year ago, 58% said it was more important to control gun ownership while 37% said it was more important to protect the right to own guns.

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The latest national survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, conducted March 31-April 21 among 1,521 adults reached on landlines and cell phones, also finds public opinion about abortion more closely divided than it has been in several years. Currently, 46% say abortion should be legal in most cases (28%) or all cases (18%); 44% believe that abortion should be illegal in most (28%) or all cases (16%). Since the mid-1990s, majorities have consistently favored legal abortion, with the exception of an August 2001 survey by ABC News/Washington Post.

The proportion saying that abortion should be legal in all or most cases has declined to 46% from 54% last August. The decline in support for legal abortion has come entirely in the share saying abortion should be legal in most cases (from 37% to 28%); 18% say abortion should be legal in all cases, which is virtually unchanged from last August (17%). Currently, 44% say abortion should be illegal in most (28%) or all cases (16%), up slightly since last August (41%).

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More Men Back Gun Rights

A widening gender gap is now apparent on both abortion and gun control. A year ago, a narrow majority of men (51%) said it was more important to control gun ownership, while 45% said it was more important to protect the right of Americans to own guns. Today, by 57% to 38%, men say protecting gun rights is more important.

By contrast, 60% of women say it is more important to control gun ownership, while 33% see protecting gun rights as more important. In April 2008, 64% of women said controlling gun ownership was more important compared with 30% who placed greater importance on protecting the right to own guns.

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The balance of opinion among independents has changed substantially over the past year. In April 2008, a majority of independents (56%) said it was more important to control gun ownership; currently, independents are divided, with 48% saying it is more important to protect gun rights and 45% saying it is more important to control gun ownership.

Support for gun rights has increased by 11 points in the Midwest, nine points in the South and seven points in the West; in all three regions, opinion is now evenly divided over whether it is more important to protect gun rights or control gun ownership. By contrast, there has been virtually no change among those living in the East, where a substantial majority (63%) continues to say that controlling gun ownership is the greater priority.

Gun Ownership and Gun Control

As might be expected, people who say they have guns in their home are much more supportive of gun rights than are those who do not own guns. Overall, a third of Americans -- including 42% of men and 25% of women -- say they have a gun, rifle or pistol in their home.

By a wide margin (68% to 28%), gun owners say it is more important to protect the right to own guns than to control gun ownership. The much larger share that does not have a gun in their home (63% of the public) places greater priority on controlling gun ownership by 63% to 31%.

There are substantial gender differences in views about gun control among gun owners and non-owners alike. Fully three-quarters of men who say they have a gun in their home (75%) believe it is more important to protect gun rights than to control gun ownership; a much smaller majority of women gun owners agree (57%). Similarly, most men who do not have a gun in their home (53%) say it is more important to control gun ownership. But an even higher percentage of women who are not gun owners (69%) place a greater priority on controlling gun ownership.

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Abortion Support Slips

Currently, 43% of men say that abortion should be legal in most or all cases, while 46% say abortion should be illegal in most or all cases. In August 2008, a greater proportion of men said that abortion should be legal than illegal (by 53% to 42%).

The change among women has been more modest -- 49% believe abortion should be legal in most or all cases, down from 54% last August.

People older than age 50 -- both men and women -- express less support for legal abortion than they did in August 2008. Just 40% of men older than 50 say abortion should be legal in most or all cases compared with 53% last summer. Support for legal abortion among women older than 50 has fallen from 53% to 45%.

There has been little change in opinions among women younger than age 50: 53% say that abortion should be legal in most or all cases, which is largely unchanged from August (55%). Support for abortion has declined since last April among men under age 50 (from 53% then to 45% currently).

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Abortion Opinions: A Closer Look

Between August and late October 2008, the proportion supporting legal abortion ranged from 57% (in mid-October) to 53% (in late October), before declining to 46% currently. Though opinion among some subgroups varied significantly across those surveys, some trends are apparent, aside from the falloff in support among men.

There has been notable decline in the proportion of independents saying abortion should be legal in most or all cases; majorities of independents favored legal abortion in August and the two October surveys, but just 44% do so today. In addition, the proportion of moderate and liberal Republicans saying abortion should be legal declined between August and late October (from 67% to 57%). In the current survey, just 43% of moderate and liberal Republicans say abortion should legal in most or all cases.

Among religious groups, support for abortion has steadily declined since August among white mainline Protestants (from 69% then to 54% currently). And just 23% of white evangelical Protestants now favor legal abortion, down from 33% in August and mid-October and 28% in late October.

The change has been less pronounced among white non-Hispanic Catholics: In August, 51% said that abortion should be legal in most or all cases; in both October surveys, 55% favored legal abortion. In the current survey, 49% of white non-Hispanic Catholics say that abortion should be legal while 42% believe it should be illegal.

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The Source (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1212/abortion-gun-control-opinion-gender-gap)

[Laura Cereta]

I had read this elsewhere. It's interesting to see public shifts on social issues. Guns and gay marriage are gaining steam and abortion is losing it.

I see three different reasons for these shifts. With guns, I believe many people are concerned about the direction the government's going in. They want to be able to protect themselves no matter what.

Gay marriage has now become an equality issue in the minds of the public; that's why it's enjoying more support.

Abortion has lost some of its "youth" (18-29) support. Young women today grew up in a more gender friendly environment. They don't realize how much reproductive control contributes to gender equality.

Those are just my opinions...

[agatha]

Abortion has lost some of it's "youth" (18-29) support. Young women today grew up in a more gender friendly environment. They don't realize how much reproductive control contributes to gender equality.



Or perhaps they do but just feel that rights carry responsibilities. I'm definately seeing an overall shift away from any support for "late term" abortions.

[Laura Cereta]

Or perhaps they do but just feel that rights carry responsibilities. I'm definately seeing an overall shift away from any support for "late term" abortions.

Very good point. Birth control is also much more accessible then it used to be and many don't see much of an excuse for needing a late term abortion.

[Horizon]

I had read this elsewhere. It's interesting to see public shifts on social issues. Guns and gay marriage are gaining steam and abortion is losing it.

I see three different reasons for these shifts. With guns, I believe many people are concerned about the direction the government's going in. They want to be able to protect themselves no matter what.

Gay marriage has now become an equality issue in the minds of the public; that's why it's enjoying more support.

Abortion has lost some of its "youth" (18-29) support. Young women today grew up in a more gender friendly environment. They don't realize how much reproductive control contributes to gender equality.

Those are just my opinions...

Or perhaps they do but just feel that rights carry responsibilities. I'm definately seeing an overall shift away from any support for "late term" abortions.

I think Laura is right on this one. I have discussed this issue with my 6 nieces and my daughter and her friends and I dont think they get it.

Agatha, as liberal as I am, I have never agreed with late term abortion except in the case the mothers life is in danger, and these days, that's very rare.

[Suzan]

These sliding statistics sound fear-based to me. It's not a conscious thing, but when people are fearful they try to exert more control over everything in their lives, including other people's choices. More perceived control equals lower anxiety, but it's an illusion.

Ultimately it's not possible to control your world to that degree unless you live on an island maybe, but even then you're not really in control of much of anything, except your own thoughts and feelings--and good luck with that, lol.

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by Laura
Abortion has lost some of its "youth" (18-29) support. Young women today grew up in a more gender friendly environment. They don't realize how much reproductive control contributes to gender equality.

Originally Posted by agatha
Or perhaps they do but just feel that rights carry responsibilities. I'm definately seeing an overall shift away from any support for "late term" abortions.

Originally Posted by Laura
Very good point. Birth control is also much more accessible then it used to be and many don't see much of an excuse for needing a late term abortion.

I think it's both, but Laura, your version intrigues me. Younger women didn't have to fight the fights or deal with the abuses on the job, like sexual harrassment, that were considered to be part of your job description, if you were a woman. They are benefiting tremendously by the paths blazed for them, but I wonder if they can possibly appreciate what it was like and where we've come from to get here.

Also, I have such concern about the emotional and sexual abuse teen girls are accepting in their relationships. It's pervasive, and I wonder if that has anything to do with their not having been part of the battle to eradicate that kind of behavior. They were discussing the Rihanna situation on an Oprah show and revealed that the majority of teen girls surveyed thought Rihanna deserved the beating she got because she started it. The dude almost killed her, but they thought it was deserved.

Oops, just realized I took off in a different direction here, sorry!

[Horizon]

I think it's both, but Laura, your version intrigues me. Younger women didn't have to fight the fights or deal with the abuses on the job, like sexual harrassment, that were considered to be part of your job description, if you were a woman. They are benefiting tremendously by the paths blazed for them, but I wonder if they can possibly appreciate what it was like and where we've come from to get here.

Also, I have such concern about the emotional and sexual abuse teen girls are accepting in their relationships. It's pervasive, and I wonder if that has anything to do with their not having been part of the battle to eradicate that kind of behavior. They were discussing the Rihanna situation on an Oprah show and revealed that the majority of teen girls surveyed thought Rihanna deserved the beating she got because she started it. The dude almost killed her, but they thought it was deserved.

Oops, just realized I took off in a different direction here, sorry!

Not really Suzan! I think it all ties in with the attitudes the young girls have today. Much different than even my generation, not sure how old you are. I think mine was really the last to be concerned about these things, and it saddens me to think if these ways of thinking go on much longer, they may find themselves back at square one.

[Laura Cereta]

Not really Suzan! I think it all ties in with the attitudes the young girls have today. Much different than even my generation, not sure how old you are. I think mine was really the last to be concerned about these things, and it saddens me to think if these ways of thinking go on much longer, they may find themselves back at square one.

I agree; it's all part of the same attitude. My generation takes for granted all the barriers broken for us by previous generations. I tie this in, as well, with the disconnect in the feminist movement. If you notice, African Americans don't trivialize the civil rights activists who fought and suffered before them. For some reason, women are still too busy tearing each other down to be united. That lack of cohesion among females contributes to apathy towards the struggles of those who came before us.

I also agree that without a renewed focus on gender equality, we will lose the progress of those who paid so dearly so we could freely enjoy it. It's very sad (and scary) to think about.

[Horizon]

I agree; it's all part of the same attitude. My generation takes for granted all the barriers broken for us by previous generations. I tie this in, as well, with the disconnect in the feminist movement. If you notice, African Americans don't trivialize the civil rights activists who fought and suffered before them. For some reason, women are still too busy tearing each other down to be united. That lack of cohesion among females contributes to apathy towards the struggles of those who came before us.

I also agree that without a renewed focus on gender equality, we will lose the progress of those who paid so dearly so we could freely enjoy it. It's very sad (and scary) to think about.

Hm, I had never thought of the AA movement in conjunction with the feminist movement. But you are right, they have kept the focus all these years and only gained in strength their rights and achievements, where the fem movement has basically stagnated and in many cases, lost ground.
It will be a sad day when women finally wake up and realize what slipped through their fingers and we have no one to blame for this but ourselves, IMHO.
It seems that after Steinem and her compatriots, there was no one in the following generations to stand up and take the reigns.

[Meg]

Not really Suzan! I think it all ties in with the attitudes the young girls have today. Much different than even my generation, not sure how old you are. I think mine was really the last to be concerned about these things, and it saddens me to think if these ways of thinking go on much longer, they may find themselves back at square one.

Sadly, now a days most teenage girls would rather be seen as ***** than as an intelligent women.

[Laura Cereta]

Sadly, now a days most teenage girls would rather be seen as ***** than as an intelligent woman.

That's what happens when the media raises children. I hate to sound like an "old person" because I'm not really that old, but where the hell are the parents these days? Parenting seems like a lost art. (Admittedly, it's easy for me to complain since I don't have children yet.)

[mavfin]

I think the abortion attitude is less a slide toward overturning Roe vs Wade, vs a slide toward, as agatha said, responsibility. i.e. not using abortion as birth control when you don't even try to prevent pregnancy, but instead using abortion as a backstop/last option when other measures fail, or obviously in involuntary pregnancies (rape, incest, whatever else).

I can't help but see this as a good thing. Responsibility always goes hand in hand with freedom, imo.

As far as what girls accept? My girls don't accept that crap. I've never treated them like that, and they won't accept others doing it, either. However, I see a lot who do accept it, and I'm not sure why. However, I grew up in a houseful of strong-willed people, women and men, and I married someone who is my equal in stubbornness, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Oh, and on guns? IMO, that's mistrust of the government showing. Just my opinion, of course.

[Laura Cereta]

I think the abortion attitude is less a slide toward overturning Roe vs Wade, vs a slide toward, as agatha said, responsibility. i.e. not using abortion as birth control when you don't even try to prevent pregnancy, but instead using abortion as a backstop/last option when other measures fail, or obviously in involuntary pregnancies (rape, incest, whatever else).

I can't help but see this as a good thing. Responsibility always goes hand in hand with freedom, imo.

As far as what girls accept? My girls don't accept that crap. I've never treated them like that, and they won't accept others doing it, either. However, I see a lot who do accept it, and I'm not sure why. However, I grew up in a houseful of strong-willed people, women and men, and I married someone who is my equal in stubbornness, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Oh, and on guns? IMO, that's mistrust of the government showing. Just my opinion, of course.

Well, that's exactly my point. It seems when there is firm guidance in the family environment that there is a much greater chance of adolescents developing healthier attitudes towards themselves and society. Of course, this is not full proof, but it nothing is.

Oh yeah, and I agree with your assertion on the gun issue, mavfin.

[Suzan]

Sadly, now a days most teenage girls would rather be seen as ***** than as an intelligent woman.
Good grief, what is it going to take to wake these young girls up?

I agree with Laura on kids being raised by the media--and now by the internet, but I don't think we really understand the ramifications of this yet. They just don't seem to have the moral compass. Of course, they're not fully developed, even brain-wise, but maybe that's the problem. There's so much input and so few boundaries and consequences for behavior.

[Horizon]

Good grief, what is it going to take to wake these young girls up?

I agree with Laura on kids being raised by the media--and now by the internet, but I don't think we really understand the ramifications of this yet. They just don't seem to have the moral compass. Of course, they're not fully developed, even brain-wise, but maybe that's the problem. There's so much input and so few boundaries and consequences for behavior.

Check out Myspace, you will see in living color what Meg means! It would scare holy hell out of you. I had the chance (shuddering at the memory) to see my oldest son's gf's page one day. My daughter showed it to me. I thought it was the page of a Hooker, I swear. She was practically nude, in a suggestive pose, as were all the pics of her friends. I asked my son if he had seen this and was he not mortified! His response was that he had seen it, asked her to change it and she refused, telling him it was "Part of who she was"! They have no sense of shame, or modesty, anything goes. Sadly, they have no clue what this behavior leads to, an entire shift to the dark ages when women were nothing more than a sexual being.

I'm hoping and praying she is not the end stop for him.:eek:

[Suzan]

Not really Suzan! I think it all ties in with the attitudes the young girls have today. Much different than even my generation, not sure how old you are. I think mine was really the last to be concerned about these things, and it saddens me to think if these ways of thinking go on much longer, they may find themselves back at square one

Meredith, I've got a few years on you, I think. I'm a child of the sixties and I was just graduating high school and going to work for the first time during the whole women's lib thing, so I was right in the middle of it. Such fun, really. Such an exciting time to be a woman. Every little bit of progress we made was a triumph, but the progress in sexual harrassment took some years.

I don't know what it's like now because I've been a writer living in a cave and working on deadline for the last fifteen-plus years, but it was not unusual to have your boss hit on you and then fire you if you didn't respond the way he wanted. Seriously, it was bad. I knew single moms who were coerced into sexual relationships because they had mouths to feed and couldn't afford to jeopardize their jobs. In times when jobs were plentiful, they could leave. When they weren't, they couldn't.

I remember one particularly nasty boss of mine at an Aerospace company telling me if I put in for transfer and didn't get another position within two weeks, he could fire me without cause. He was trying to scare me out of leaving. He wasn't sexually harassing me, but he was demanding, insulting and abusive in every other way. Believe me, I transferred.

[Meg]

Good grief, what is it going to take to wake these young girls up?

I agree with Laura on kids being raised by the media--and now by the internet, but I don't think we really understand the ramifications of this yet. They just don't seem to have the moral compass. Of course, they're not fully developed, even brain-wise, but maybe that's the problem. There's so much input and so few boundaries and consequences for behavior.

Check out Myspace, you will see in living color what Meg means! It would scare holy hell out of you. I had the chance (shuddering at the memory) to see my oldest son's gf's page one day. My daughter showed it to me. I thought it was the page of a Hooker, I swear. She was practically nude, in a suggestive pose, as were all the pics of her friends. I asked my son if he had seen this and was he not mortified! His response was that he had seen it, asked her to change it and she refused, telling him it was "Part of who she was"! They have no sense of shame, or modesty, anything goes. Sadly, they have no clue what this behavior leads to, an entire shift to the dark ages when women were nothing more than a sexual being.

I'm hoping and praying she is not the end stop for him.:eek:

You'd be surprised to see the clothing these girls wear to school! Mini skirts(with no shorts or anything under them! Other people do have to walk behind them up the stairs!) Low-cut shirts showing WAY too much cleavage... if any. :rolleyes: Jeans that when you sit are NOT covering their ass!

Not to mention the menality they have! Everything is about their hair, clothes, nails and make-up. Seriously some of these girls have no substance whats so ever! For instance! Tuesday night in my driving school class, there were these two girls, perfect examples of what I'm talking about! They both didn't know what the word DEFENSIVE meant! :eek:

It's just ridiculous now a days!:atwitsend:

[Horizon]

Meredith, I've got a few years on you, I think. I'm a child of the sixties and I was just graduating high school and going to work for the first time during the whole women's lib thing, so I was right in the middle of it. Such fun, really. Such an exciting time to be a woman. Every little bit of progress we made was a triumph, but the progress in sexual harrassment took some years.

I don't know what it's like now because I've been a writer living in a cave and working on deadline for the last fifteen-plus years, but it was not unusual to have your boss hit on you and then fire you if you didn't respond the way he wanted. Seriously, it was bad. I knew single moms who were coerced into sexual relationships because they had mouths to feed and couldn't afford to jeopardize their jobs. In times when jobs were plentiful, they could leave. When they weren't, they couldn't.

I remember one particularly nasty boss of mine at an Aerospace company telling me if I put in for transfer and didn't get another position within two weeks, he could fire me without cause. He was trying to scare me out of leaving. He wasn't sexually harassing me, but he was demanding, insulting and abusive in every other way. Believe me, I transferred.

Suzan, that is AWFUL! God, I can not even imagine being treated that way, thank God! I am 41, so I think I have definitely benefited from the movement, but I do maintain I am the last generation that "gets" it. I am thankful every day for all the work of the women before me that have ensured I never have to put up with crap like that.
Hats off to your generation, for paving the way. I just wish there were women willing to maintain it.

[sojourner]

Agatha, as liberal as I am, I have never agreed with late term abortion except in the case the mothers life is in danger, and these days, that's very rare.

This issue isn't going away for two reasons: (1) most late term abortions are due to birth defects such as Down’s syndrome and (2) women are waiting longer to start a family, which increases the probability of these kinds of problems.

[agatha]

That's what happens when the media raises children. I hate to sound like an "old person" because I'm not really that old, but where the hell are the parents these days? Parenting seems like a lost art. (Admittedly, it's easy for me to complain since I don't have children yet.)




I may totally alienate y'all over this but here goes... :laughing:

I think a major part of the problem in today's society is dual income households. *ducking for cover* I'm NOT saying that the mother needs to be the one who stays home but I do think one parent should be home at least part time. For the record, my dad stayed home with me and my mom worked.

[Ikasu]

I may totally alienate y'all over this but here goes... :laughing:

I think a major part of the problem in today's society is dual income households. *ducking for cover* I'm NOT saying that the mother needs to be the one who stays home but I do think one parent should be home at least part time. For the record, my dad stayed home with me and my mom worked.

That may be ideal, but a lot of families can't afford to do that.

I don't think your view is out of left field btw. Having a parent home is good. Whatever works best for each family. Liberalism is about choices.

[agatha]

This issue isn't going away for two reasons: (1) most late term abortions are due to birth defects such as Down’s syndrome and (2) women are waiting longer to start a family, which increases the probability of these kinds of problems.



There are 1st and 2nd trimester tests for Downs. I'm not "up" on the various abortion procedures by any stretch but I thought "late term" was considered 3rd trimester?

[agatha]

That may be ideal, but a lot of families can't afford to do that.



Interesting thing I've noticed... I have several friends who are quitting their jobs because their taxes are going up.

[mavfin]

I may totally alienate y'all over this but here goes... :laughing:

I think a major part of the problem in today's society is dual income households. *ducking for cover* I'm NOT saying that the mother needs to be the one who stays home but I do think one parent should be home at least part time. For the record, my dad stayed home with me and my mom worked.

Parenting under a two-job house just takes more work, that's all. My kids don't have the issues a lot do, and we're a two-job household.

It's not about the jobs, it's about the effort you put into parenting.

[sojourner]

There are 1st and 2nd trimester tests for Downs. I'm not "up" on the various abortion procedures by any stretch but I thought "late term" was considered 3rd trimester?

That is my understanding of "late term" so maybe some of those late term abortions will go away. Thanks for the information.

[sojourner]

I may totally alienate y'all over this but here goes... :laughing:

I think a major part of the problem in today's society is dual income households. *ducking for cover* I'm NOT saying that the mother needs to be the one who stays home but I do think one parent should be home at least part time. For the record, my dad stayed home with me and my mom worked.

I think it is great if both parent have careers they want to pursue but I think that these days both parents work mostly because they must to maintain a standard of living a one-income household could maintain a generation ago. I attribute most of that to an increased tax load.
I worked out of our home during the early years of our youngest son with his crib next to a minicomputer in our garage. Those years bring back some of my fondest memories. He was the easiest of our children to raise and I can’t help but think part of the reason was because he had a full-time parent at home.

[Horizon]

I may totally alienate y'all over this but here goes... :laughing:

I think a major part of the problem in today's society is dual income households. *ducking for cover* I'm NOT saying that the mother needs to be the one who stays home but I do think one parent should be home at least part time. For the record, my dad stayed home with me and my mom worked.

I dont think that is terrible, and I know of a lot of families that have done this.
I will say this. I raised three kids as a single parent. My kids were alone, A LOT! And, due to the time I spent parenting constructively, they are better off than most of their friends with two parents in the home.

IMHO, it has more to due with the values and common sense that you teach them.

[agatha]

Parenting under a two-job house just takes more work, that's all. My kids don't have the issues a lot do, and we're a two-job household.

It's not about the jobs, it's about the effort you put into parenting.



You know, it isn't just about parenting though. It is about having the time to be volunteer at school, the public library, the hospital... spend time with elderly neighbors, take meals to homebound friends... stuff like that. IMO, these are all areas that are suffering because we have so many dual-income and single parent households.

[mavfin]

You know, it isn't just about parenting though. It is about having the time to be volunteer at school, the public library, the hospital... spend time with elderly neighbors, take meals to homebound friends... stuff like that. IMO, these are all areas that are suffering because we have so many dual-income and single parent households.

And we do those things. We sacrifice leisure time to do those things. So I don't see that it's the two-job thing that makes the difference. It's lazy parents/lazy adults.

[Horizon]

And we do those things. We sacrifice leisure time to do those things. So I don't see that it's the two-job thing that makes the difference. It's lazy parents/lazy adults.

genericstamp! As a single parent, I volunteered at my kids school, was a room mom every year, and for awhile for 3 different classes! I went on every field trip and and was a member of the PTA, all while holding a full time job and sometimes even a second part time one.
I always worked in the evenings so I could be at school with them during the day. When they all entered JR High, I worked in the day and was home most nights, although I did work weekend nights for many years.

[mavfin]

genericstamp! As a single parent, I volunteered at my kids school, was a room mom every year, and for awhile for 3 different classes! I went on every field trip and and was a member of the PTA, all while holding a full time job and sometimes even a second part time one.
I always worked in the evenings so I could be at school with them during the day. When they all entered JR High, I worked in the day and was home most nights, although I did work weekend nights for many years.

Even now, my wife and I don't see each other much during the work week, but, there's someone home almost all the time. I work 6 PM - 4:30 AM (I mostly only post here from work) 4 days a week, and my wife teaches school in normal hours. We pass in the night for those four days. I crawl in bed with her about 5 AM, she gets out of it at 5:45 or so.

However, I sleep two hours, and I take my oldest to school myself, then get back to sleep. I get back from taking one to school to see the youngest girl off to her bus.

I *see my kids more than I see my wife* those four days. The rest of the week, they see me, too. My wife is there at night to do the school functions and all that.

It's all about the effort, not the fact that we're each working a full-time job to feed them. You can all glibly talk about how it's better for the kids if only one parent works, but, that iesn't always feasible.

[Horizon]

Even now, my wife and I don't see each other much during the work week, but, there's someone home almost all the time. I work 6 PM - 4:30 AM (I mostly only post here from work) 4 days a week, and my wife teaches school in normal hours. We pass in the night for those four days. I crawl in bed with her about 5 AM, she gets out of it at 5:45 or so.

However, I sleep two hours, and I take my oldest to school myself, then get back to sleep. I get back from taking one to school to see the youngest girl off to her bus.

I *see my kids more than I see my wife* those four days. The rest of the week, they see me, too. My wife is there at night to do the school functions and all that.

It's all about the effort, not the fact that we're each working a full-time job to feed them. You can all glibly talk about how it's better for the kids if only one parent works, but, that iesn't always feasible.

No its not, I agree 100%. In todays economy, it's almost impossible for only one parent to work.
My Bf's bosses both have stay at home wives, and they have a ton of kids between them. But, they pull down an astronomical income for our area. Unless you are making in excess of 75,000 per year, I dont see how it's possible to have any standard of living if only one parent is working.

[agatha]

No its not, I agree 100%. In todays economy, it's almost impossible for only one parent to work.
My Bf's bosses both have stay at home wives, and they have a ton of kids between them. But, they pull down an astronomical income for our area. Unless you are making in excess of 75,000 per year, I dont see how it's possible to have any standard of living if only one parent is working.



It probably depends on the COL for the area but I would think you are correct in general. Although from the grocery savings website I visit, I have seen people say that they do so on far less than that amount. Anyway, my point was that it would be better for society as a whole if one parent were able to stay home.

[Horizon]

It probably depends on the COL for the area but I would think you are correct in general. Although from the grocery savings website I visit, I have seen people say that they do so on far less than that amount. Anyway, my point was that it would be better for society as a whole if one parent were able to stay home.

You are probably correct in that also. Ability is the key word here. But there are ways to compensate if it's not possible. It just takes more effort, which it seems is too much to ask of many people. Not all, but many.

[mavfin]

You are probably correct in that also. Ability is the key word here. But there are ways to compensate if it's not possible. It just takes more effort, which it seems is too much to ask of many people. Not all, but many.

Lots of parents out there who just don't care to put out the effort that raising good children takes. It takes work to find the balance between making them independent, functioning members of society, and not letting them loose *too* much.

I see this in households with both parents working, one parent working, and no parents working. That's why I say it doesn't matter about the job situation. It's all about the effort.

May sound arrogant, and if it does, I don't care. My kids are much more adaptable to things that happen, and much more trustworthy, than many (even a majority) of their peers. My 15-year-old girl is pretty independent, but, she dresses decently on her own, is pretty responsible for her age, and has good grades. She'll be driving soon, and she's doing well at that.

My wife and I both work, but, our life revolves around what we have to do to raise good kids. We're not helicopter parents. We don't hover, and save/shield them from everything. Not at all. It's a nasty world out there, and teenagers have to see some of it to 'get' it. If they get in trouble, and they genuinely did what they shouldn't have, they'll have to pay the piper. I'm not going to school to save them from something they deserve. Now, if they don't, that's a different story. Yes, we make sacrifices in some things, because if we didn't, our kids would suffer. It's a priority thing. Some parents make the kids a priority. Some don't. You can tell which is which pretty easily, IMO.

[Lealy]

Oh, and on guns? IMO, that's mistrust of the government showing. Just my opinion, of course.

Since I just got my first gun in Dec. you bet it is because I don't trust the Govt. It is also because I have the right under the 2nd and the govt is busy taking away all they can to create their collective. I also like shooting and am a very good shot. Last but not least look at the cities with the strictest gun laws what do you see, the highest gun deaths. Criminals don't follow the laws, thus the criminal label so crime is another reason. Kinda like the DUI laws no matter how much you lower the limit you will still have drunk drivers so the only thing a lower limit did was cause me a law abiding citizen to not drink at all when I go out (money lost form the economy) because I have no idea where the limit is anymore.

Just a FYI for those who worry. I have a gun lock and each of my children has been shooting to learn the damage they can do and the rules. They are not allowed to touch it except when we are at the range with MY supervision, but if they decide to do otherwise it cant hurt them or anyone else since I carry the key with me at all times.

Right now females like me are buying guns