(05/29/09) "Wikipedia bans Church of Scientology" (The Register)

[Spang]

In an unprecedented effort to crack down on self-serving edits, the Wikipedia supreme court has banned contributions from all IP addresses owned or operated by the Church of Scientology and its associates.

Closing out the longest-running court case in Wikiland history, the site’s Arbitration Committee voted 10 to 0 (with one abstention) in favor of the move, which takes effect immediately.

The eighth most popular site on the web, Wikipedia bills itself as "the free encyclopedia anyone can edit." Administrators frequently ban individual Wikifiddlers for their individual Wikisins. And the site's UK press officer/resident goth once silenced an entire Utah mountain in a bizarre attempt to protect a sockpuppeting ex-BusinessWeek reporter. But according to multiple administrators speaking with The Reg, the muzzling of Scientology IPs marks the first time Wikipedia has officially barred edits from such a high-profile organization for allegedly pushing its own agenda on the site.

The Church of Scientology has not responded to our request for comment.

Officially, Wikipedia frowns on those who edit "in order to promote their own interests." The site sees itself as an encyclopedia with a "neutral point of view" - whatever that is. "Use of the encyclopedia to advance personal agendas – such as advocacy or propaganda and philosophical, ideological or religious dispute – or to publish or promote original research is prohibited," say the Wikipowersthatbe.

Admins may ban a Wikifiddler who betrays an extreme conflict of interest, and since fiddlers often hide their identity behind open proxies, such IPs may be banned as a preventative measure. After today's ruling from the Arbitration Committee - known in Orwellian fashion as the ArbCom - Scientology IPs are "to be blocked as if they were open proxies" (though individual editors can request an exemption).

According to evidence turned up by admins in this long-running Wikiland court case, multiple editors have been "openly editing [Scientology-related articles] from Church of Scientology equipment and apparently coordinating their activities." Leaning on the famed WikiScanner, countless news stories have discussed the editing of Scientology articles from Scientology IPs, and some site admins are concerned this is "damaging Wikipedia's reputation for neutrality."

One admin tells The Reg that policing edits from Scientology machines has been particularly difficult because myriad editors sit behind a small number of IPs and, for some reason, the address of each editor is constantly changing. This prevents admins from determining whether a single editor is using multiple Wikipedia accounts to game the system. In Wikiland, such sockpuppeting is not allowed.

The Wikicourt considered banning edits from Scientology IPs only on Scientology-related articles. But this would require admins to "checkuser" editors - i.e. determine their IP - every time an edit is made. And even then they may not know who's who.

"Our alternatives are to block them entirely, or checkuser every 'pro-Scientology' editor on this topic. I find the latter unacceptable," wrote one ArbComer. "It is quite broad, but it seems that they're funneling a lot of editing traffic through a few IPs, which make socks impossible to track."

And it may be a moot point. Most the editors in question edit nothing but Scientology-related articles. In Wikiparlance, they're "single purpose accounts."

Some have argued that those editing from Scientology IPs may be doing so without instruction from the Church hierarchy. But a former member of Scientology's Office of Special Affairs - a department officially responsible "for directing and coordinating all legal matters affecting the Church" - says the Office has organized massive efforts to remove Scientology-related materials and criticism from the web.

"The guys I worked with posted every day all day," Tory Christman tells The Reg. "It was like a machine. I worked with someone who used five separate computers, five separate anonymous identities...to refute any facts from the internet about the Church of Scientology."

Christman left the Church in 2000, before Wikipedia was created.

This is the fourth Scientology-related Wikicourtcase in as many years, and in addition to an outright ban on Scientology IPs, the court has barred a host of anti-Scientology editors from editing topics related to the Church.

Many Wikifiddlers have vehemently criticized this sweeping crackdown. Historically, the site's cult-like inner circle has aspired to some sort of Web 2.0 utopia in which everyone has an unfettered voice. An organization editing Wikipedia articles where it has a conflict of interest is hardly unusual, and in the past such behavior typically went unpunished.

But clearly, Wikipedia is changing. In recent months, the site's ruling body seems far more interested in quashing at least the most obvious examples of propaganda pushing.

Scientology's banishment from Wikipedia comes just days after the opening of a (real world) trial that could see the dissolution of the organization's French chapter.

The Source (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/29/wikipedia_bans_scientology/)

[Suzan]

The eighth most popular site on the web, Wikipedia bills itself as "the free encyclopedia anyone can edit." Administrators frequently ban individual Wikifiddlers for their individual Wikisins. And the site's UK press officer/resident goth once silenced an entire Utah mountain in a bizarre attempt to protect a sockpuppeting ex-BusinessWeek reporter. :rotfl: But according to multiple administrators speaking with The Reg, the muzzling of Scientology IPs marks the first time Wikipedia has officially barred edits from such a high-profile organization for allegedly pushing its own agenda on the site.

The Church of Scientology has not responded to our request for comment.

Officially, Wikipedia frowns on those who edit "in order to promote their own interests." The site sees itself as an encyclopedia with a "neutral point of view" - whatever that is. "Use of the encyclopedia to advance personal agendas – such as advocacy or propaganda and philosophical, ideological or religious dispute – or to publish or promote original research is prohibited," say the Wikipowersthatbe.

Wikiland has its own vocabulary. I suspect they're going to need some Wikilawyers when the church of Scientology drags them through all the way to the real Supreme Court.

I hope Wikiland wins this Wikiwar!

[Horizon]

If they are doing this, I think it only fair they include any other religious organizations too. I doubt that Scientologists are the only ones that use Wiki this way, and I think it's unfair to single them out.

[Suzan]

I don't disagree at all. If other churches are prosyletizing, they should be Wikibanned too.

Somebody stop me before I go WikiOCD!

[Horizon]

I don't disagree at all. If other churches are prosyletizing, they should be Wikibanned too.

Somebody stop me before I go WikiOCD!

There is a kid from here that was a phenom on the Bball court, got a scholarship to Duke University. He had a wiki page before he even left HS, so a buncha kids, (my youngest son included :eek:) got together one night and hijacked the wiki page. It stayed that way for a couple of weeks and people kept adding to it. This is why, except for use as a dictionary, I find wiki to be totally unreliable.

And who is to say, that the people adding stuff to COS wiki page, are not opponents of them? There is really no way to know at all.

[BillDemo]

Scientology is a dangerous cult. Not a legitimate religion.
It's a money-making scam that employs abusive and illegal means to maintain its public image and keep its members in line.

Germany banned Scientology for this reason.

Wikipedia is perfectly entitled to ban an organization that repeatedly tries to alter their content to cover up past misdeeds and crimes committed by the "Church" of Scientology.

[ImmaSlave4U]

There is a kid from here that was a phenom on the Bball court, got a scholarship to Duke University. He had a wiki page before he even left HS, so a buncha kids, (my youngest son included :eek:) got together one night and hijacked the wiki page. It stayed that way for a couple of weeks and people kept adding to it. This is why, except for use as a dictionary, I find wiki to be totally unreliable.

And who is to say, that the people adding stuff to COS wiki page, are not opponents of them? There is really no way to know at all.

Exactly. I know that there's a lot of false data on Wikipedia. I regard Wikipedia as a mixed blessing. I think that it is an important element of society which, responsibly run and responsibly employed, can do a tremendous amount of good. However, biased and irresponsible "edits" can cause enormous harm by circulating and perpetuating misinformation which stokes the fires of prejudice. And I for one, am glad someone in the Church was making sure that people reading the Wiki page on Scientology have accurate, reliable information with which to work. The "edits" help to dispel the rumors and counteract the false allegations that have gathered in morgue files and in editors' minds over the years. Such edits are very beneficial for both the Church and the public.

[ImmaSlave4U]

Scientology is a dangerous cult. Not a legitimate religion.

No. It is a religion in the fullest sense of the word.

"Cult" is usually meant in a disparaging sense to imply a secret or closed group with limited membership and mysterious beliefs. Religious scholars point out that the term has become almost meaningless, since its modern use reflects a growing prejudice against all religions. For example, a government report in Belgium labeled the Hasidic Jews and even the YWCA as "cults." The French Parliament included Baptists on their list.

Religions that grow and endure do so to the degree that they assist people in their spiritual lives. To fulfill this role, the scripture of Scientology is fully codified, broadly published and available to anyone, and its churches and missions are always open to the public.

Scientology is unique in that it does not require or tell anyone to "believe" anything. Rather, Scientology believes every individual should think for themselves. In Scientology, what is true for the individual is only what they have observed personally and knows is true for themselves. Scientology is not authoritarian, but offers a technology a person can use and then decide whether it works for them.


Germany banned Scientology for this reason.

Germany and, indeed, much of Central Europe, has a long and bitter history of religious intolerance and persecution, a trend which has continued into the present. Many religious and ethnic minorities have become the targets of escalating incidents of violence, xenophobia and religious discrimination.

Unfortunately, many government officials in Germany continue to fuel the intolerance. The Kohl government left a dismal legacy as far as human and civil rights are concerned. Muslims, Charismatic Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Hindus, Scientologists and in some cases even Jews are among those who have been denied fundamental rights because of their race or religion. In recent years, the German government has been strongly criticized in more than 25 reports from international human rights bodies including the United Nations Human Rights Committee, the Helsinki Commission, the United States State Department, and a British Ad-Hoc Human Rights Committee composed of Lords and scholars.

In 1997, a study by the Human Rights Centre of the University of Essex, England, found that, “In Germany, democracy is used as an ideology to impose conformity. It has been dismaying to discover that the state, and some of its politicians and people, are using what are known from the past to be well-worn paths of discrimination and intolerance.” The U.S. State Reporter has criticized the German government for the “clearly discriminatory practice” of “preventing a person from practicing his or her profession of participating in public or private fora solely based on that person’s religion or belief.”

[Suzan]

Scientology is unique in that it does not require or tell anyone to "believe" anything. Rather, Scientology believes every individual should think for themselves. In Scientology, what is true for the individual is only what they have observed personally and knows is true for themselves. Scientology is not authoritarian, but offers a technology a person can use and then decide whether it works for them.

Except where psychiatry is concerned.

[Spang]

Religions are cults.

[CGP]

Scientology is a dangerous cult. Not a legitimate religion.

Mmmm....many "legimate religions" are no better than cults. So it doesn't make much sense to single out Scientology. There are allegedly "legitimate religions" causing great harm to the people of this world as we speak.

[CGP]

Religions are cults.

I am tending to agree with this more as each year passes by.

[CGP]

Except where psychiatry is concerned.

Or was that just a Tom Cruise teaching?

[Suzan]

Or was that just a Tom Cruise teaching?
I don't know--and I guess it won't do any good to go read the Wiki page. Maybe Imma will tell us. There was much buzz after Cruise called out Brooke Shields and the media made it sound like Scientology was anti-psychiatry, but if any other Scientologists were interviewed, I didn't hear about it.

[ImmaSlave4U]

Psychiatry, by inaugurating the theory of eugenics, provided the philosophical basis for the wholesale slaughter of human beings in World Wars I and II. Psychiatry uses electric shock, brain-mutilating psychosurgery and mind-damaging drugs to destroy a person and make them "docile and quiet" in the name of "treatment."

Psychiatric methods involving the butchering of human beings and their sanity are condemned by the Church. Scientologists are trying to create a world without war, insanity and criminality. Psychiatry is seeking to create a world were people are reduced to a robotized or drugged, vegetable-like state so that they can be controlled.

Scientologists do not believe that psychiatrists should tell their patients what they think is wrong with them. This interjects lies or ideas which are not true for the individual themselves, thereby violating their basic integrity. Scientologists believe that one should find out for themselves the source of their troubles since this gives them the ability to improve conditions in their own lives and environment.

Scientology and psychiatry will always be working at cross-purposes. Scientology is a religion and recognizes that humans are a spiritual being. Psychiatrists view human beings as simply just another animal. Psychiatry is strongly opposed to all religions as it does not even recognize that humans are a spiritual being.

Scientologists disagree with the enforced and harmful psychiatric methods of involuntary commitment, forced and heavy drugging, electroconvulsive shock treatment, lobotomy and other psychosurgical operations.

At best, psychiatry suppresses life’s problems...at worst, it causes severe damage, irreversible setbacks in a person’s life and even death.

YouTube - Psychiatry: An Industry of Death, Introduction

[AngusAwesome]

At best, psychiatry suppresses life’s problems...at worst, it causes severe damage, irreversible setbacks in a person’s life and even death.

Hmm. And there I was thinking the stuff in my Prozac was chemicals that inhibit the re-uptake of serotonin. I guess it's actually powdered Scientology? Кто знал, who knew!

[Alces95]

Psychiatry, by inaugurating the theory of eugenics, provided the philosophical basis for the wholesale slaughter of human beings in World Wars I and II. Psychiatry uses electric shock, brain-mutilating psychosurgery and mind-damaging drugs to destroy a person and make them "docile and quiet" in the name of "treatment."

Psychiatric methods involving the butchering of human beings and their sanity are condemned by the Church. Scientologists are trying to create a world without war, insanity and criminality. Psychiatry is seeking to create a world were people are reduced to a robotized or drugged, vegetable-like state so that they can be controlled.

Scientologists do not believe that psychiatrists should tell their patients what they think is wrong with them. This interjects lies or ideas which are not true for the individual themselves, thereby violating their basic integrity. Scientologists believe that one should find out for themselves the source of their troubles since this gives them the ability to improve conditions in their own lives and environment.

Scientology and psychiatry will always be working at cross-purposes. Scientology is a religion and recognizes that humans are a spiritual being. Psychiatrists view human beings as simply just another animal. Psychiatry is strongly opposed to all religions as it does not even recognize that humans are a spiritual being.

Scientologists disagree with the enforced and harmful psychiatric methods of involuntary commitment, forced and heavy drugging, electroconvulsive shock treatment, lobotomy and other psychosurgical operations.

At best, psychiatry suppresses life’s problems...at worst, it causes severe damage, irreversible setbacks in a person’s life and even death.

YouTube - Psychiatry: An Industry of Death, Introduction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPUHUpfDVgY)

There are so many inaccuracies and misleading statements that it is nearly comical. I know that Imma will not change his mind but for those reading this please know that the above list is laughable.

[Suzan]

Psychiatry, by inaugurating the theory of eugenics, provided the philosophical basis for the wholesale slaughter of human beings in World Wars I and II. Psychiatry uses electric shock, brain-mutilating psychosurgery and mind-damaging drugs to destroy a person and make them "docile and quiet" in the name of "treatment."

Psychiatric methods involving the butchering of human beings and their sanity are condemned by the Church. Scientologists are trying to create a world without war, insanity and criminality. Psychiatry is seeking to create a world were people are reduced to a robotized or drugged, vegetable-like state so that they can be controlled.

Scientologists do not believe that psychiatrists should tell their patients what they think is wrong with them. This interjects lies or ideas which are not true for the individual themselves, thereby violating their basic integrity. Scientologists believe that one should find out for themselves the source of their troubles since this gives them the ability to improve conditions in their own lives and environment.

Scientology and psychiatry will always be working at cross-purposes. Scientology is a religion and recognizes that humans are a spiritual being. Psychiatrists view human beings as simply just another animal. Psychiatry is strongly opposed to all religions as it does not even recognize that humans are a spiritual being.

Scientologists disagree with the enforced and harmful psychiatric methods of involuntary commitment, forced and heavy drugging, electroconvulsive shock treatment, lobotomy and other psychosurgical operations.

At best, psychiatry suppresses life’s problems...at worst, it causes severe damage, irreversible setbacks in a person’s life and even death.

YouTube - Psychiatry: An Industry of Death, Introduction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPUHUpfDVgY)
Sadly, this is an indictment of Scientology, not psychiatry. If this is Scientology policy, it makes them sound like a band of paranoid schizophrenics, projecting their fears, suspicions and delusions onto the only group that could realistically help them.

Someone has spent far too much time watching One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

[Spang]

Someone has spent far too much time watching One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

That film is a cinematic masterpiece!

[sojourner]

I don't know--and I guess it won't do any good to go read the Wiki page. Maybe Imma will tell us. There was much buzz after Cruise called out Brooke Shields and the media made it sound like Scientology was anti-psychiatry, but if any other Scientologists were interviewed, I didn't hear about it.

I thought that Cruise was upset about the drug(s) she was taking for depression, not psychiatry in general. I think he had a point.

IMO, drugs are totally over prescribed in this country. There are something around ten times as many diagnoses of ADD per capita in this country as in Europe - mostly children and mostly males. They are being put on ritalin or some similar drug. Does anyone believe all those cases are real?

[Horizon]

IMHO, I think it's very sad some of the things being said here about a long time member based on his views and his choice of religion.
Would this be acceptable if he were Catholic, or even Muslim? Probably not. Every religion has practices and beliefs that others find quite ridiculous. Attacking those is fine, but this has become a quite personal attack on Imma, which I think is grossly unfair, whether you agree with Scientology or not.:confused::(

[Suzan]

IMHO, I think it's very sad some of the things being said here about a long time member based on his views and his choice of religion.
Would this be acceptable if he were Catholic, or even Muslim? Probably not. Every religion has practices and beliefs that others find quite ridiculous. Attacking those is fine, but this has become a quite personal attack on Imma, which I think is grossly unfair, whether you agree with Scientology or not.:confused::(
Good point, Meredith, but we are equal-opportunity here in terms of how we talk about the various religions and their shortcomings and abuses, etc. Catholicism has taken some heavy hits.

I have no problem with Scientology (and certainly not Imma's belief in it), except in this one area, which I consider extreme and dangerous. Should I say nothing? My background is in psychology. I haven't worked in that field in years, but shouldn't I be allowed to defend my former profession against the charges by the church of Scientology? I really do believe those charges are bordering on paranoid.

[Suzan]

I thought that Cruise was upset about the drug(s) she was taking for depression, not psychiatry in general. I think he had a point.

IMO, drugs are totally over prescribed in this country. There are something around ten times as many diagnoses of ADD per capita in this country as in Europe - mostly children and mostly males. They are being put on ritalin or some similar drug. Does anyone believe all those cases are real?
I agree that drugs are over-prescribed, especially for kids. I read a discussion on a Yahoo group of book readers, mostly women with children (and a few men), who were talking about putting their kids on these drugs, and almost all of them were arguing for it.

I'm not saying that some children might not legitimately need the ADD drugs--and whatever else, but I was astounded at how many were taking them and not just one drug, but multiple drugs. These kids have developing brains. What long-term effect are these drugs going to have?

And how did those of us who grew up in the generations before these drugs survive?

Having said that, most psychiatry--and psychology--doesn't deal with drugs at all. And not all psychiatric drugs are bad. Some of them are saving people's sanity and their lives.

[Horizon]

Good point, Meredith, but we are equal-opportunity here in terms of how we talk about the various religions and their shortcomings and abuses, etc. Catholicism has taken some heavy hits.

I have no problem with Scientology (and certainly not Imma's belief in it), except in this one area, which I consider extreme and dangerous. Should I say nothing? My background is in psychology. I haven't worked in that field in years, but shouldn't I be allowed to defend my former profession against the charges by the church of Scientology? I really do believe those charges are bordering on paranoid.

I'm not saying that at all, Suzan, but the inference from a couple of posts here that he is nuts, is wrong, IMHO. Attack, his beliefs, not him if you must.
I seem to remember our Catholic members pitching a fit when anything has been said against Catholicism (some, not all) and I think this is grossly unfair,as Imma is most likely the ONLY Scientologist we have here. Who is going to stand up for him?
While I dont agree with or believe what he posted, I think it's unfair to say he may be nuts for his beliefs.
In the year I have known him, he is neither nuts, or paranoid.;)

[Suzan]

While I dont agree with or believe what he posted, I think it's unfair to say he may be nuts for his beliefs.
In the year I have known him, he is neither nuts, or paranoid.

Well, we're all a bit paranoid about one thing or another. It's just part of the human condition. Some people are aware of it, some aren't. Paranoid schizophrenics are typically unaware of their own condition--and notoriously difficult to treat.

That said, I didn't mean to suggest that Imma was any more paranoid than any of the rest of us. I do think whoever came up with the church's policy on psychiatry could use a checkup, lol.

[TheTaoOfBill]

Scientology is extremely dangerious, extremely corrupt and their rules have destroyed families, driven people to bankruptcy and have even killed people.

YouTube - The Un-Funny TRUTH about Scientology

It was started as a way to scam people out of their money and continues to do so.

No other religion requires donations to advance your spiritual level.

[CGP]

Scientology is extremely dangerious, extremely corrupt and their rules have destroyed families, driven people to bankruptcy and have even killed people.


Remove the word "scientology" and substitute it with a few other more well-known and practised religions and I think the very same accusations would apply! If scientology has caused harm, it's not alone in the world of religion and is actually a small player (in the causing harm department) compared with some other un-named big players.

[TheTaoOfBill]

Remove the word "scientology" and substitute it with a few other more well-known and practised religions and I think the very same accusations would apply! If scientology has caused harm, it's not alone in the world of religion and is actually a small player (in the causing harm department) compared with some other un-named big players.

Neither Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other religion forces their followers to donate to advance in the religion. And when people try to talk their family members out of donating so much money to this cult they separate them from their family and have them live on Scientology compounds.

They brainwash/scam their followers out of their money and they drive their followers to pure insanity and refuse to allow them to seek help. And when a member tries to leave they get followed, harassed and attacked.

Scientology is definitely worse than any mainstream religion. The leaders of mainstream religions generally want to help people. The leaders of Scientology have no other purpose but to scam people and gain power.

Several friends of L. Ron Hubbard reported hearing him say several times that the best way to make money is to start a religion.

The religion was founded on a scam and continues to be a scam and while other religions do tend to ruin lives only Scientology does it intentionally.

[Wyoming Dem]

Since I believe that EVERY religion falls under the "Hocus Pocus, Abbra Kadabbra, Give me your wallet" category, I think that they should ALL be banned from Wiki if one is going to be (I don't know how they could allow C of S to continue to "edit" if it's the editing (self-promotion) that Wiki feels in inappropriate so banning appears the only way to stop that behavior so why not ban them all as all religion is about self promotion, rather like Obama...

I read a lot of L. Ron Hubbard's science fiction books back in my youth and having done that, it shows that the C of S was not a real far stretch for him. That said, everyone can believe anything they want, just don't insist I listen to and believe what you do. Why is is that those armed with the bible always MISS the "compassion", "love thy neighbor", "Turn the other cheek", "tolerance" passages? And I don't read the bible because I only read non-fiction...:D

[ImmaSlave4U]

Scientology is extremely dangerious, extremely corrupt and their rules have destroyed families, driven people to bankruptcy and have even killed people.


Funny! I hear the same exact things about the Clinton's. :laughing:

Now, on a more serious note...Taking items out of order:

Neither Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other religion forces their followers to donate to advance in the religion.

Churches of Scientology are supported financially by its members, just like every other church.

Some churches have a system of tithes, others require their members to pay for pew rentals, religious ceremonies and services. In the Church of Scientology, parishioners make donations for auditing or training they wish to receive. These contributions by Scientologists are the primary source of financial support for the Church and fund all the religious and social betterment activities the Church engages in. Scientologists are not required to tithe or make other donations.

Scientology does not have hundreds of years of accumulated wealth and property like other religions...it must make its way in the world according to the economics of today's society. When one considers the cost of ministering even one hour of auditing, requiring extensively trained specialists, and the overhead costs of maintaining church premises, the necessity of donations becomes clear.

The Church selected the donation system as its primary method of funding because it is the most equitable method. Those who use the facilities of the church should be the ones who contribute most to its maintenance. Of course, no donation is expected from members who are at the church to participate in services other than auditing and training (such as listening to tape plays of L. Ron Hubbard’s lectures, reading scriptural works in the church library, meeting with fellow parishioners, receiving counseling from the Chaplain or attending Sunday services, sermons, weddings, christenings and funerals).

Scientologists’ donations keep the Church alive and functioning, fund its widespread social reform programs, make Scientology known to people who may otherwise never have the opportunity to avail themselves of it, and help create a safe and pleasant environment for everyone.


And when people try to talk their family members out of donating so much money to this cult they separate them from their family and have them live on Scientology compounds.

Where did you hear this? The Church actually encourages and helps its members to have excellent family relationships, whether their relatives are Scientologists or not. In fact, relationships between a Scientologist and the rest of his family routinely improve after his involvement in Scientology, because through Scientology one acquires the means to increase communication and resolve any problems that might have existed before.

The Church goes to great lengths to reconcile family differences should any such problem arise. Family members of Scientologists are always welcome to visit the Church, to meet other Scientologists and to have their questions about Scientology answered.

The only occasions when reconciliation is hard to accomplish is when extremist, anti-religious hate groups intervene and make communication difficult or impossible. Such groups have a vested interest in inflaming rather than defusing upsets among family members, and are always closely connected to deprogrammers...hired thugs who prey upon the concerns of families in exchange for payments of thousands of dollars.

Scientology Chaplains have assisted me on numerous occasions in bringing my family members together and enabling them to discover the real cause of our disagreements. Regardless of whether the other family members choose to become Scientologists or not, Scientologists take deep pride in their record of resolving family problems and conflicts.


Several friends of L. Ron Hubbard reported hearing him say several times that the best way to make money is to start a religion.

Oh, I've heard this one before...this is an unfounded rumor. One individual once claimed L. Ron Hubbard made such a comment during a lecture in 1948. The only two people who could be found who attended that very lecture in 1948 denied that LRH ever made this statement. And LRH himself certainly denied it.

Another famous writer from the same era who did make such a statement was George Orwell, who wrote to a friend in 1938 that "there might be a lot of cash in starting a new religion." His letter was later published as part of a collection of letters which was circulated widely. It seems that Orwell’s comment has been misattributed to L. Ron Hubbard. This was recognized by courts in Germany who enjoined those who had attributed such a statement to LRH from repeating it.

[mavfin]

reply to Tao

Looks like copy-and-paste boilerplate from some church handbook on how to explain away the problems in Scientology to me. Sorry, not buying it. Nothing personal, but Scientology is definitely a very controlling church, every bit as controlling as the fundamentalist/Pentecostal 'Christian' churches, if not worse.

I may pound on Tao a bit in other threads, but I'll agree with him here.

(Anytime I see text like the post above, it looks 'fake' and 'boilerplated' and 'ready-made' to me.)

[Meg]

Neither Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other religion forces their followers to donate to advance in the religion. And when people try to talk their family members out of donating so much money to this cult they separate them from their family and have them live on Scientology compounds.

I'm not a fan of religions, but apparently you're forgetting the history of the Catholic church. Because you'd know that's how they used to make their money(VERY LONG TIME AGO). Telling their members that the only way for their deceased family members to get to heaven was to donate to the church. While they may have stopped let's not act like it's never happened before.

[mavfin]

I'm not a fan of religions, but apparently you're forgetting the history of the Catholic church. Because you'd know that's how they used to make their money(VERY LONG TIME AGO). Telling their members that the only way for their deceased family members to get to heaven was to donate to the church. While they may have stopped let's not act like it's never happened before.

Very true. However, most religions don't do it in modern times. C of S still does.

[Meg]

Very true. However, most religions don't do it in modern times. C of S still does.

I know and I mentioned that. As well as the fact that let's not pretend like they began a practice of something unheard of.

[mavfin]

I know and I mentioned that. As well as the fact that let's not pretend like they began a practice of something unheard of.

Well, you could fill whole libraries (and it's been done) with the crimes churches throughout history have committed, and indeed are still committing, in the names of their respective deities. IMO, the 'Church' of Scientology isn't any different on that score, with the dictates to its members about how they live, and particularly the enforcement of same. Most churches you can go to, walk out, and live your life. Not so much that one.

[VotingHillary]

Someone has spent far too much time watching One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

or Girl Interrupted.

[Meg]

Well, you could fill whole libraries (and it's been done) with the crimes churches throughout history have committed, and indeed are still committing, in the names of their respective deities. IMO, the 'Church' of Scientology isn't any different on that score, with the dictates to its members about how they live, and particularly the enforcement of same. Most churches you can go to, walk out, and live your life. Not so much that one.

Believe me I know! I was saying since this all became about why Scientology is this or that. In reality most religions are all crazy. IMO anyway. :-bd

[VotingHillary]

Several friends of L. Ron Hubbard reported hearing him say several times that the best way to make money is to start a religion.

As a reformed-Catholic, I have no illusions of how money has corrupted that religion. But I do have to agree with Tao on this one. This is a "religion" founded not on faith, but convenience of a tax shelter.

[TheTaoOfBill]

Some churches have a system of tithes, others require their members to pay for pew rentals, religious ceremonies and services. In the Church of Scientology, parishioners make donations for auditing or training they wish to receive. These contributions by Scientologists are the primary source of financial support for the Church and fund all the religious and social betterment activities the Church engages in. Scientologists are not required to tithe or make other donations. No mainstream church is as money hungry as the Church of scientology. Yes Christians might pass around a donation dish but Scientology literally tells people that the only way to advance in their religion is through auditing and training that it's members are forced to pay for. No other religion does this! If scientology was about helping people which other religions are about helping people they wouldn't require money to advance in the religion.

Christians share their knowledge for free. Buddhists share their knowledge for free. Muslims share their knowledge for free. Scientology charge hundreds of thousands of dollars to reach the top OT levels and receive the spiritual benefit of being a scientologist.

Scientology does not have hundreds of years of accumulated wealth and property like other religions...it must make its way in the world according to the economics of today's society. When one considers the cost of ministering even one hour of auditing, requiring extensively trained specialists, and the overhead costs of maintaining church premises, the necessity of donations becomes clear. Not an excuse. There are plenty of lesser known religions that are truly out to benefit man kind and do not charge a dime for enlightenment. Scientology goes for vulnerable people and once they have them they keep them through harassment and threats and thuggery.

Scientologists’ donations keep the Church alive and functioning, fund its widespread social reform programs, make Scientology known to people who may otherwise never have the opportunity to avail themselves of it, and help create a safe and pleasant environment for everyone. And Christian donations keep the church alive. Difference is it's not required. It's simply requested.




The Church encourages and helps its members to have excellent family relationships, whether their relatives are Scientologists or not. In fact, relationships between a Scientologist and the rest of his family routinely improve after his involvement in Scientology, because through Scientology one acquires the means to increase communication and resolve any problems that might have existed before.

The Church goes to great lengths to reconcile family differences should any such problem arise. Family members of Scientologists are always welcome to visit the Church, to meet other Scientologists and to have their questions about Scientology answered.

The only occasions when reconciliation is hard to accomplish is when extremist, anti-religious hate groups intervene and make communication difficult or impossible. Such groups have a vested interest in inflaming rather than defusing upsets among family members, and are always closely connected to deprogrammers...hired thugs who prey upon the concerns of families in exchange for payments of thousands of dollars.

Scientology Chaplains have assisted me on numerous occasions in bringing my family members together and enabling them to discover the real cause of our disagreements. Regardless of whether the other family members choose to become Scientologists or not, Scientologists take deep pride in their record of resolving family problems and conflicts. There are quite a few former Scientology members who were stripped from their families and had all contact cut off with them because they were critics of the church.

YouTube - Scientology: Tom Padgett at CULTinfo

YouTube - OPERATION RE-CONNECT

YouTube - Scientology: Interview with Astra Woodcraft and family 1/14






This is an unfounded rumor. One individual once claimed L. Ron Hubbard made such a comment during a lecture in 1948. The only two people who could be found who attended that very lecture in 1948 denied that LRH ever made this statement. And LRH himself certainly denied it.

Another famous writer from the same era who did make such a statement was George Orwell, who wrote to a friend in 1938 that "there might be a lot of cash in starting a new religion." His letter was later published as part of a collection of letters which was circulated widely. It seems that Orwell’s comment has been misattributed to L. Ron Hubbard. This was recognized by courts in Germany who enjoined those who had attributed such a statement to LRH from repeating it.



No. It's not an unfound rumor and it wasn't mentioned by one person. That's a lie made up by the church to cover it's tracks. L Ron Hubbard said this quote not once but several times to several people.

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/scientology/start.a.religion.html

[ImmaSlave4U]

Well, you could fill whole libraries (and it's been done) with the crimes churches throughout history have committed, and indeed are still committing, in the names of their respective deities. IMO, the 'Church' of Scientology isn't any different on that score, with the dictates to its members about how they live, and particularly the enforcement of same. Most churches you can go to, walk out, and live your life. Not so much that one.

This is certainly not true. Where do you get your information? As a Scientologist, I am free to be as active in participating in Church services as I wish. Non-practicing Scientologists may return to services at any time. If someone decides they no longer want to be a member of the Church, they are free to leave. Parishioners visit or participate in the Church as they wish.
The next time you say something, it would be good to check your fatcs.

[TheTaoOfBill]

I'm not a fan of religions, but apparently you're forgetting the history of the Catholic church. Because you'd know that's how they used to make their money(VERY LONG TIME AGO). Telling their members that the only way for their deceased family members to get to heaven was to donate to the church. While they may have stopped let's not act like it's never happened before.

And had I been alive back then I would have called the catholic church a cult then too. Just because the catholic church did it at one point does not give the right to Scientology to do it now. We live in a much freer society where this should not happen. Understand that it is not a choice to some of these people. They become brainwashed and often donate hundreds of thousands to the church and go into massive amounts of debt at the expense of their entire lives. Scientology targets vulnerable people who are most willing to pay for a place to belong.

[ImmaSlave4U]

IMHO, I think it's very sad some of the things being said here about a long time member based on his views and his choice of religion.
Would this be acceptable if he were Catholic, or even Muslim? Probably not. Every religion has practices and beliefs that others find quite ridiculous. Attacking those is fine, but this has become a quite personal attack on Imma, which I think is grossly unfair, whether you agree with Scientology or not.:confused::(

Thanks, Mary! Don't worry, I can handle them. :)

Don't pay too much mind to them or what they say. They don't know anything about Scientology, so they search the web and suck up anything they read even though it is obviously false. They really should go to the Church's website and actually read through it, this will give them some real data on what Scientology is and hopefully they will realize that their data is false and based on bad sources.

[VotingHillary]

Scientology targets vulnerable people who are most willing to pay for a place to belong.

Damn good thing CGP hasn't made this place a religion and is charging us all.

[Meg]

And had I been alive back then I would have called the catholic church a cult then too. Just because the catholic church did it at one point does not give the right to Scientology to do it now. We live in a much freer society where this should not happen. Understand that it is not a choice to some of these people. They become brainwashed and often donate hundreds of thousands to the church and go into massive amounts of debt at the expense of their entire lives. Scientology targets vulnerable people who are most willing to pay for a place to belong.

All religions target vunerable people. That's the point. If people aren't responsisble enough to know when to stop, then that's when it stops being everyone else's problem. There's only so much you can tell someone.

I find Catholicism to be completely ridiculous but apparently millions of other people seem to disagree. Oh well.

[TheTaoOfBill]

I'm not saying that at all, Suzan, but the inference from a couple of posts here that he is nuts, is wrong, IMHO. Attack, his beliefs, not him if you must.
I seem to remember our Catholic members pitching a fit when anything has been said against Catholicism (some, not all) and I think this is grossly unfair,as Imma is most likely the ONLY Scientologist we have here. Who is going to stand up for him?
While I dont agree with or believe what he posted, I think it's unfair to say he may be nuts for his beliefs.
In the year I have known him, he is neither nuts, or paranoid.;)

I have nothing against the members of scientology. I worry for them more than I hate them.

My anger is completely directed at the leaders of scientology who destroy lives both financially and physically.

Their actions have led to the deaths of several members including the tragic case of Lisa McPherson who tried to escape scientology due to her mental illness. She was abducted by Scientology members and locked in a room and starved to death.

YouTube - The Sad End of Lisa McPherson CBS Public Eye part 1

[TheTaoOfBill]

All religions target vunerable people. That's the point. If people aren't responsisble enough to know when to stop, then that's when it stops being everyone else's problem. There's only so much you can tell someone.

I find Catholicism to be completely ridiculous but apparently millions of other people seem to disagree. Oh well.

Other churches target the vulnerable with the intentions to help them. Scientology targets the vulnerable with the intention of taking the little money they have.

Don't take it from me. Look it up. There are plenty of former members out there with a story to tell. Many of which risked their lives to get their story out. This is a dangerous cult of thugs and when they aren't scamming their members they are harassing their former ones.