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View Full Version : (06/02/09) "Late-term Abortions: Facts, Stories, and Ways to Help" (RH Reality Check)


Spang
06-03-2009, 03:52 PM
In all the extensive coverage of the assassination in his church of Dr. George Tiller by a murderer affiliated with extremist right-wing groups, little has been said to shed light on what late-term abortions are, who has them and why.

Instead, much of the media and talking heads pontificating on this subject have constantly focused on Tiller's being "one of the very few doctors who perform late-term abortions," without providing any context as to why he did so and under what circumstances.

As a result, the dominant narrative is one which perpetuates an assumption that people are electing to have late-term abortions for the sake of convenience. This public perception is shaped by the constant intonement that Tiller was "killing babies" coming from irresponsible journalistic hacks like Bill O'Reilly, the suggestions by Chris Matthews that women are blithely electing to abort fetuses that are viable outside the womb, and the statements of inconsistent moralizers like Will Saletan that "there are cases where there's no real medical situation other than some teenager in denial and it went on for five months [where the argument is] you should make an exception because of the so-called mental health of the girl."

The narrative is one in which women are shamed for choosing abortion, no matter the circumstances, and in which Dr. Tiller is portrayed even indirectly as a despicable aide in their shame.

This narrative is so pervasive that even among those who consider themselves pro-choice, many people are left to wonder: Are these women just waking up one day, deciding over coffee they are tired of being pregnant, and opting for an abortion at 24 weeks? Are there a lot of third trimester abortions? Are they just, as Chris Matthews likes to call them, "elective procedures?"

In fact, in the past two days I have found the misunderstanding about late-term abortion to be widespread even among many of those in the public health advocacy community.

So here are some facts:

Late-term abortions are very rare. About one percent of all abortions performed in the United States occur after 21 weeks. The third trimester begins at 24 weeks.

Late-term abortions are severely restricted by law.

In 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the constitutional right to privacy extends to the decision of a woman, in consultation with her physician, to terminate a pregnancy.

The Court also determined, however, that this right is not absolute and it must be balanced against the state's legitimate interest in protecting both the health of the pregnant woman and the developing human life. Therefore, according to Roe, the state's interest in protecting potential life becomes compelling at the point of fetal viability (when the fetus has the capacity for sustained survival outside the uterus). States are allowed to, and indeed have, severely restricted access to abortion in the third-trimester, except, as the Supreme Court has ruled, when necessary to preserve the woman's life or health. In subsequent cases, the Court made clear that viability is a medical determination, which varies with each pregnancy, and that it is the responsibility of the attending physician to make that determination.

As the Guttmacher Institute points out in a brief on this issue, the Supreme Court has held that:

* even after fetal viability, states may not prohibit abortions "necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother;"
* "health" in this context includes both physical and mental health;
* only the physician, in the course of evaluating the specific circumstances of an individual case, can define what constitutes "health" and when a fetus is viable; and
* states cannot require additional physicians to confirm the physician's judgment that the woman's life or health is at risk.

What is viability?

Viability is a medical, not a legal definition.

As pointed out in another excellent brief by Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California:

A fetus is viable when it reaches an "anatomical threshold" when critical organs, such as the lungs and kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator, which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs into the bloodstream.

The brief continues by underscoring that:

While medical advances have increased the survival of infants born between 24 and 28 weeks of gestation, the point of viability has moved little over the past decade; at the earliest, it remains at approximately 24 weeks, where it was when the Supreme Court decided Roe -- a fact acknowledged by the court in its recent decision in PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA V. CASEY. A study of infant survival by researchers at Case Western Reserve University Medical School found that the rate of survival for infants born before 25 weeks gestation has not improved appreciably in recent years.

Most states restrict late-term abortions.

The Guttmacher brief notes that:

* 37 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy.
* 24 states initiate prohibitions at fetal viability.
* 5 states initiate prohibitions in the third trimester.
* 8 states initiate prohibitions after a certain number of weeks, generally 24.

The circumstances under which procedures are permitted after that point vary from state to state. For example:

* 29 states permit abortions to preserve the life or health of the woman;
* 4 states permit abortions to save the life or health of the woman, but use a narrow definition of health;
* 4 states permit abortions only to save the life of the woman.


Some states require the involvement of a second physician when a later-term abortion is performed. Nine states require that a second physician attend in order to treat a fetus if it is born alive. Ten states require that a second physician certify that the abortion is medically necessary.

Kansas law is strict on the issue of late-term abortions.

Kansas law requires that such procedures can only be performed after viability if two independent doctors agree that not to do so would put the mother at risk of irreparable harm by giving birth.

A huge gap in the narrative.

There is a vast gap between the descriptions of Dr. Tiller by members of the extremist right -- who incite lunatics to violence by protraying Tiller as a mass murderer -- and the many women and men who have been served by Dr. Tiller, who refer to him as heroic, kind, compassionate, professional. This gap speaks to the fact that very few -- not least the mainstream media -- understand what he was doing and, and more to the point, why we are asking the wrong people to comment.

In the words of one of the hundreds of people writing messages on the memorial website to Dr. Tiller:

Dr. Tiller was a hero, plain and simple. I am thankful for his life and the gift of high quality health care he provided his patients. My thoughts are with his family, friends and community and my thanks to you for your support of Dr. Tiller despite the tough circumstances.

Dr. Tiller was one of the few doctors providing late-term abortions to people in need in part because he was a committed, ethical, moral medical professional who took seriously his oath to serve the best interests of his patients, and because he was dedicated to supporting women's rights even at the risk of his own life and even under unimaginable daily pressure and threat.

Another poster on his memorial site states:

I think this is an absolute outrage, George Tiller was the only one I had to turn too during an awful moment in my life. He gave my life back and the choice I had to make was painful, personal, and heartwrenching. God bless his family, the church, and everyone who is hurt by this violent act.

He also was one of the few because laws in many places restrict women's access, and because fewer and fewer doctors are trained in these life-saving operations, due to the actions of the far right. Many doctors from out of state referred patients to Dr. Tiller and many revered him.

If you listen to the voices of women served, you understand far more than what the media has told us about who chooses late-term abortion and why.

For these women and their partners, Tiller was not "an abortionist" but a life-saver. He was a man who put himself in jeopardy to ensure that a woman would not have to lose her life to infection or complications in an already-doomed pregnancy. He was a doctor who ensured that women carrying a fetus with fatal or catastrophic abnormalities could make the decision -- if they so chose -- to spare themselves and their families the agony of watching a newborn that could not live endure countless operations and medical procedures in futile attempts to keep it "alive."

A 2006 amicus brief prepared for Gonzales v. Planned Parenthood Federation of America, a case focused on the availability of second trimester abortions, contains a number of stories of women who had to seek out later-term abortions, such as that of Carrie, a 40-year-old woman from the Southwest who was happily married for nine years when she became pregnant. She described the timing of her genetic testing and decision to end her pregnancy:

On November 11, 2005, I elected to have [a] CVS test. . . . Then, the test results came in. . . . We knew chromosome 14 was incompatible with life, and chromosome 22 could mean Cat Eye Syndrome. Both my husband and I wanted the baby very much, and neither one of us was willing to terminate the pregnancy on a "maybe." . . .

I had the amnio on 12/26/05, and the results came in on Jan. 13, 2006. It confirmed without doubt - she had Cat Eye Syndrome tetrasomy in every cell of her body. The last 3 sonograms showed . . . our baby's kidneys were beginning to malfunction. . . . We made this decision because we loved our daughter so much. We didn't want her to suffer the definite and the untold problems she was sure to endure, if she even made it. We made the best decision we could with the information we had. We fought for her. We wanted her. But we didn't want to condem[n] her to [a] life of agony.

Or that of Cara, a married Catholic woman with an almost-three-year-old son, who had "always dreamed of having a big family." She described the time it took to obtain information needed about her pregnancy:

I was about 17 weeks pregnant at the time. . . .[T]hey scheduled us for our Level II ultrasound a few weeks early so they could look in more detail at the baby. . . . A few days [after the ultrasound], we received the news that would change our lives forever. Our son was infected with CMV (cytomegalovirus). This was the worst possible scenario (of the possibilities we were given). . . . Although I have always been pro-choice, I had winced at the thought of late-term abortions or "partial birth" abortions, thinking that it was just inhumane or irresponsible. Now I know differently. In my case, we were not able to confirm our diagnosis until 19 or 20 weeks gestation. I terminated at 22 weeks. . . . I was completely heartbroken.

Numerous other such stories are contained in this brief.

Authors on RH Reality Check, such as Lynda Waddington and Susan Ito, have shared their stories about late-term abortion and the excruciatingly difficult decisions they had to make.
Others have written at length about their experiences of finding their wanted pregnancies were doomed to fail, of facing their own possible death in carrying to term, and leaving their children without a parent.

A collection of "Kansas Stories" can be found, for example, on the site, A Heartbreaking Choice, such as that by Nicholas' Mom, by K.M., and by several others...parents who looked forward to bringing a child into their family but were faced with fetal deformities so severe their child either would not survive pregnancy, would be born only to die, or in which carrying the pregnancy to term would threaten survival of the mother. Other stories are being collected here on RH Reality Check, Facebook, on a website memorial to Dr. Tiller and elsewhere.

None of these women made their choices lightly and it is profoundly disrespectful of them -- indeed it is dangerous to women -- to suggest otherwise for political gain, not to mention commit the horrific acts of violence against providers such as Dr. Tiller who help so many women and men through this agony.

What can you do?

Obviously in this climate, constant political vigilance is needed against the erosion of women's rights in law and in policy, and against the public narrative that shames women and providers, as well as against the actions of the extremist right that daily puts them at risk. This will be increasingly true in the coming months.

More immediately, in honor of Dr. Tiller and the patients he and other providers serve, we are also providing the following links to funds already set up to receive donations in his name. We urge you to consider giving as much as you can.

Two of the funds available in memory of Dr. Tiller include:

George Tiller Memorial Abortion Fund
c/o National Network of Abortion Funds
42 Seaverns Ave.
Boston, MA 02130

Or you may donate to the Tiller Memorial Fund at NNAF online. (https://secure.groundspring.org/dn/index.php?aid=19862)

The Women's Reproductive Rights Assistance Project is also accepting donations in Dr. Tiller's name. (http://www.wrrap.org/)

The Source (http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/06/02/thirdtrimester-abortions-facts-stories-and-how-you-can-help-0)

Artists4Hillary
06-03-2009, 05:09 PM
Instead, much of the media and talking heads pontificating on this subject have constantly focused on Tiller's being "one of the very few doctors who perform late-term abortions," without providing any context as to why he did so and under what circumstances.

Not true. Hospitals perform late- term. Well, at least here in CA.

It's not just the physical health of the mother that should be taken into consideration, but the emotional health as well.

Suzan
06-03-2009, 05:47 PM
Interesting article. I had no idea what Tiller was doing--and assumed he must be some kind of monster based on what I'd heard recently--until I watched a segment on Anderson Cooper's show last night.

I rarely ever watch Cooper and just happened to be channel surfing. He had another doctor in Kansas who does late-term abortions and was a friend of Tiller's. Cooper also had two women--one on the show the night before who'd had a late-term abortion when she was told her baby had a congenital condition that would leave it severely deformed with no chance of surviving. The second woman was told the same thing, but decided to carry her baby to term and let it live as long as it could survive without heroic measures. The baby lived for 12 hours and the family had a regular funeral service afterward.

I came away from this program feeling that a woman facing the inevitable death of the baby she's carrying should absolutely have the choice of how to deal with it. Both women dealt with this very painful decision in different ways and both stories were very touching. What I didn't understand was why anyone would condemn Tiller for performing the procedure.

I've heard O'Reilly say numerous times that Tiller performs these procedures for the money, that he's become a millionaire and he would do them for any medical reason--or no medical reason at all. If that's the truth, why wasn't he in jail a long time ago? That's against the law in Kansas and most other states. But O'Reilly almost foams at the mouth when he talks about Tiller, calling him names and making hm sound like Jack, the Ripper.

After hearing the Anderson Cooper segment, I felt as if they were talking about two different men. It's very disturbing that we're so profoundly divided on these things. Someone from another planet would almost certainly think that large segments of earth's population were near psychotic on certain issues--and not just abortion. We are also deeply divided on war, torture, etc.

I'm not saying who's crazy and who isn't, just that our realities are so radically opposed you have to wonder what's going on. And some of us fall on either side of the political spectrum, depending on the issue. Does that make us more crazy or less????

mavfin
06-03-2009, 07:53 PM
It's very disturbing that we're so profoundly divided on these things.

I blame the political parties for this, both of them. What happened to 'agree to disagree' America? What happened to respecting others' right to a different position? I'll tell you what happened. Both parties threw it away for political gain.

Spang
06-03-2009, 07:56 PM
I blame the political parties for this, both of them.

And Bingo was his name-o, we have a winner!

Suzan
06-03-2009, 09:28 PM
I blame the political parties for this, both of them. What happened to 'agree to disagree' America? What happened to respecting others' right to a different position? I'll tell you what happened. Both parties threw it away for political gain.

genericstamp! And the foaming-at-the-mouth commentators on both sides aren't helping either.

sojourner
06-03-2009, 10:54 PM
I am not sure about that 23 week number. As with everything else, viability is not a hard and fast number. I have read of fetuses surviving at 21 weeks. I think this writer is pro-abortion and fudging the numbers.

There are about 1,370,000 abortions per year in the United States. If 1% are late term, as stated in the paper, then there are about 13,700 late term abortions per year. Cat eye syndrome is about 1 in 74,000 per year, so that implies that there are about 0.18 abortions per year that are late term. I am impressed that she was able to track one down.

Spang
06-03-2009, 11:02 PM
I think this writer is pro-abortion and fudging the numbers.

I don't think anyone is pro-abortion. The author of this article is pro-choice. I doubt she makes a point to have an abortion once a week.

sojourner
06-03-2009, 11:13 PM
I don't think anyone is pro-abortion. The author of this article is pro-choice. I doubt she makes a point to have an abortion once a week.

Pro-choice is a euphemism for pro-abortion. If it isn’t why are people like Sara Palin so maligned for choosing to keep their Down’s syndrome babies?

Spang
06-04-2009, 12:04 AM
Pro-choice is a euphemism for pro-abortion. If it isn’t why are people like Sara Palin so maligned for choosing to keep their Down’s syndrome babies?

That's her choice.

eyedoc333
06-04-2009, 12:09 AM
Pro-choice is a euphemism for pro-abortion. If it isn’t why are people like Sara Palin so maligned for choosing to keep their Down’s syndrome babies?

Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. Most pro-choice people that I know agree that Sarah Palin had every right to choose to carry her fetus to term.

I'm pro-choice, but not pro-abortion. I think it's a private medical decision between the patient and her doctor.

Suzan
06-04-2009, 12:11 AM
Pro-choice is a euphemism for pro-abortion. If it isn’t why are people like Sara Palin so maligned for choosing to keep their Down’s syndrome babies?
You're making some blanket--and unfair-assumptions.

I'm pro-choice. I'm not pro-abortion. And I didn't malign Sarah Palin about her choice to keep her Down Syndrome baby. I don't know anyone who did, except perhaps a few idiots on the internet. I've actually been very supportive of Sarah, including my hopes for her political future. This, despite the fact that I share very few of her socially conservative views. Probably none.

AngusAwesome
06-04-2009, 12:15 AM
Pro-choice is a euphemism for pro-abortion. If it isn’t why are people like Sara Palin so maligned for choosing to keep their Down’s syndrome babies?

Because people like Sarah Palin will say that they had a choice, and that they think they made the right choice, and then turn around and say that other people shouldn't have the choice and that Sarah Palin should choose for them.
I doubt Sarah Palin would have appreciated it if Kathleen Sebelius had forced her to have an abortion.

And nobody is pro-abortion. Being pro-choice means one supports the right of the mother to choose to abort or to keep the baby - female empowerment, anyone? "Pro-abortion" implies that those people think abortions are great and would like to maximize the number performed, which even you must know isn't true.

cinnamongirl
06-04-2009, 12:22 AM
Pro-choice is a euphemism for pro-abortion. If it isn’t why are people like Sara Palin so maligned for choosing to keep their Down’s syndrome babies?

I don't know anyone who maligned Sarah Palin for keeping her baby, but for making the choice and weighing her options while advocating taking that choice away from other women.

Also, if it's just a euphemism, are you cool if we call pro-lifers "anti-choice"?

sojourner
06-04-2009, 12:22 AM
Because people like Sarah Palin will say that they had a choice, and that they think they made the right choice, and then turn around and say that other people shouldn't have the choice and that Sarah Palin should choose for them.
I doubt Sarah Palin would have appreciated it if Kathleen Sebelius had forced her to have an abortion.

And nobody is pro-abortion. Being pro-choice means one supports the right of the mother to choose to abort or to keep the baby - female empowerment, anyone? "Pro-abortion" implies that those people think abortions are great and would like to maximize the number performed, which even you must know isn't true.

Sarah Palin has never said that other people should not have a choice, and even if she did does that make it right to condemn her?

sojourner
06-04-2009, 12:34 AM
I don't know anyone who maligned Sarah Palin for keeping her baby, but for making the choice and weighing her options while advocating taking that choice away from other women.

Also, if it's just a euphemism, are you cool if we call pro-lifers "anti-choice"?

Just so we are using comparable terms pro-lifers should be called anti-abortion, and yes I would be cool with that.

I guess you were not paying attention when all the vitriol was spewed at her. Check out past postings on daily kos and the democrat underground and then get back to me and we will talk.

Spang
06-04-2009, 12:40 AM
Check out past postings on daily kos and the democrat underground and then get back to me and we will talk.

This is HCF. Furthermore, I won't criticize anyone for being pro-life. However, I will criticize someone for telling me what I have to be. I'm pro-choice, and if you're pro-life, that's your choice. Not mine.

mavfin
06-04-2009, 12:46 AM
Just so we are using comparable terms pro-lifers should be called anti-abortion, and yes I would be cool with that.

I guess you were not paying attention when all the vitriol was spewed at her. Check out past postings on daily kos and the democrat underground and then get back to me and we will talk.

Oh, he was paying attention, Sojourner. Ask Spang and couple others, and they'll quote every piece of trash the media made up about Palin back at you as truth. And call her stupid, to boot.

sojourner
06-04-2009, 12:48 AM
This is HCF. Furthermore, I won't criticize anyone for being pro-life. However, I will criticize someone for telling me what I have to be. I'm pro-choice, and if you're pro-life, that's your choice. Not mine.

My response was to a person that said she didn't know anyone who had maligned Sarah Palin. I was informing her that there were plenty that did and was informing her where she could find them. I wasn't telling her what she should think and I don't remember ever telling you what you should think.

Spang
06-04-2009, 12:50 AM
I wasn't telling her what she should think and I don't remember ever telling you what you should think.

I wasn't criticizing you.

AngusAwesome
06-04-2009, 02:32 AM
Sarah Palin has never said that other people should not have a choice, and even if she did does that make it right to condemn her?

She has said that abortion should be banned in almost all cases, including rape and incest. So a woman raped by her father whose life was not endangered, according to Palin, should be legally required to bring the child to term. That isn't taking away someone's choice?

And if she doesn't believe that a woman pregnant with a child of incestuous rape should have the right to an abortion, is that not condemnable?

The_Basseteer
06-04-2009, 12:38 PM
She has said that abortion should be banned in almost all cases, including rape and incest. So a woman raped by her father whose life was not endangered, according to Palin, should be legally required to bring the child to term. That isn't taking away someone's choice?

And if she doesn't believe that a woman pregnant with a child of incestuous rape should have the right to an abortion, is that not condemnable?

Is Gov. Palin trying to foist these beliefs off on the rest of us...or are these just her beliefs??

sojourner
06-04-2009, 02:03 PM
She has said that abortion should be banned in almost all cases, including rape and incest. So a woman raped by her father whose life was not endangered, according to Palin, should be legally required to bring the child to term. That isn't taking away someone's choice?

And if she doesn't believe that a woman pregnant with a child of incestuous rape should have the right to an abortion, is that not condemnable?

Do you have a source for the statement above?

She has said that she would counsel her daughter against abortion. She has said that she is personally against abortion except it the health of the mother is in danger. She thinks that abortion should be a states issue. She has said that she doesn’t think women should be punished for having an abortion. She has also said that she would not propose new anti-abortion legislation.

I don’t think she has ever said that a woman does not have a right to an abortion.

I personally think this issue is way overblown. Legal abortion is the law of the land and is not going to change. It is primarily just an issue that liberals drag out to scare people.

Lealy
06-04-2009, 02:06 PM
Is Gov. Palin trying to foist these beliefs off on the rest of us...or are these just her beliefs??

Did she try to have anti-choice laws passed in Alaska? Just stating or advocating your point of view is just that unless she or others who are pro-life politicians either push or put into place restrictions on choice she is not foisting anything.

sojourner
06-04-2009, 02:33 PM
So how does everyone feel about the Freedom of Choice Act?

My understanding is that it would legalize partial birth abortions overriding state’s laws against it.

I personally have a big problem with partial birth abortions.

Spang
06-04-2009, 02:34 PM
I personally have a big problem with partial birth abortions.

Then don't have one.

sojourner
06-04-2009, 02:45 PM
Then don't have one.

Cute! And very constructive.

Spang
06-04-2009, 02:51 PM
Cute! And very constructive.

There's nothing else to say, really. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. Same goes for same-sex marriage.

sojourner
06-04-2009, 04:01 PM
There's nothing else to say, really. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. Same goes for same-sex marriage.

Unbelievable! You are comparing a gruesome abortion procedure where a fetus is killed (not always hence the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act) with marriage?

Spang
06-04-2009, 04:10 PM
Unbelievable! You are comparing a gruesome abortion procedure where a fetus is killed (not always hence the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act) with marriage?

Not exactly. Let me try to explain. The Second Amendment gives you the right to keep and bear arms. However, you don't have to have a gun if you don't want to. As an American, you have a choice. You can own a gun or not own a gun. You can have an abortion or not have an abortion. And when same-sex marriage is legal in the United States, because that will happen, you'll have a choice to marry someone of the same sex, opposite sex or no one at all. It's all about choice.

sojourner
06-04-2009, 04:35 PM
Not exactly. Let me try to explain. The Second Amendment gives you the right to keep and bear arms. However, you don't have to have a gun if you don't want to. As an American, you have a choice. You can own a gun or not own a gun. You can have an abortion or not have an abortion. And when same-sex marriage is legal in the United States, because that will happen, you'll have a choice to marry someone of the same sex, opposite sex or no one at all. It's all about choice.

Except in one case a human life is involved. Why we need late-term abortions is beyond me. I originally thought it was because birth defects such as Down's syndrome couldn't be detected earlier but a poster on another thread corrected me.

If late-term abortions are necessary, why can't a more humane way be used?

AngusAwesome
06-05-2009, 09:35 PM
Do you have a source for the statement above? http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008176778_palin13.html

"She also described some areas where she differs from McCain, including her belief that abortions should be banned even in cases of rape and incest."

She has said that she would counsel her daughter against abortion. She has said that she is personally against abortion except it the health of the mother is in danger. She thinks that abortion should be a states issue. She has said that she doesn’t think women should be punished for having an abortion. She has also said that she would not propose new anti-abortion legislation.

The "personal beliefs" of candidates are generally considered to have some bearing on what they do in office. Why doesn't she think women should be punished for having an abortion and in what circumstances, exactly? I mean right now there's no punishment because it's legal. Does she mean making illegal but with no punishment? Because that's a law nobody's going to follow. If she thinks abortion is a state's issue but doesn't want to do anything, it sounds like she would've been the kind of Pres/VP to sit back and let states ban abortion all they want – the sort of thing that leads states like Kansas to turn into abortion meccas, when their neighbors all ban late-term abortion.

I don’t think she has ever said that a woman does not have a right to an abortion.

So she doesn't want them having them and doesn't think they should be allowed but also hasn't said that women don't have a right to them? So if a woman came to her and said she wanted an abortion, which Sarah Palin would answer, the "abortion-is-wrong" one or the "women have the right to an abortion" one? I mean, at the moment legally she's correct, but it doesn't sound to me like that's how she wants it to be.

I personally think this issue is way overblown. Legal abortion is the law of the land and is not going to change. It is primarily just an issue that liberals drag out to scare people.

Yeah, like when liberals shot George Tiller, or when liberals blew up those abortion clinics. It's better than when liberals drag out gay marriage to scare people, though.

Wyoming Dem
06-05-2009, 09:46 PM
Abortion, whether late term or otherwise is the cudgel that the Democratic Party has used to beat women over the head with and cause them to be fearful of anyone who is not a Democrat. It took me to many years to finally figure that out. I will NOT be beat over the head with Roe V Wade anymore. IF anyone in the whole wide world wanted to make abortion illegal it was George Bush, so why are they still legal? Overturning Roe V Wade BY ANYONE would be political suicide. And I am also NOT in favor of late term abortion but I am tired fo the Democratic Left and Religeous Fanatics on the Right as well, using Roe V Wade for their own personal agendas.

And I am also not in favor of using abortion as birth control.

AngusAwesome
06-05-2009, 09:49 PM
Why we need late-term abortions is beyond me. I originally thought it was because birth defects such as Down's syndrome couldn't be detected earlier but a poster on another thread corrected me.

There are other disorders that may not surface until later in the pregnancy, or that may take time to confirm. I'm not a doctor but I know there's a disturbing constellation of things that can go wrong, which frankly highlights what a miracle a healthy baby is. Andrew Sullivan's blog has been receiving a flood of stories about late-term abortions, which you can navigate here if you want:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/its-so-personal-the-roundup.html

And speaking of late-term abortions, they're pretty damn rare. According to Fox News, there were only 100 abortions in the entire country performed each year after 24 weeks gestation. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,880,00.html]

If late-term abortions are necessary, why can't a more humane way be used?

I think the way they use these days is the hysterotomy, which is like a C-section but they inject drugs to stop the baby's heart beforehand. "Partial-birth" abortions, with the head-crushing and extraction, were banned in 2003. Seems pretty humane to me, unless maybe the baby feels pain from the drug but I don't know either way.

Spang
06-05-2009, 09:49 PM
Abortion, whether late term or otherwise is the cudgel that the Democratic Party has used to beat women over the head with and cause them to be fearful of anyone who is not a Democrat. It took me to many years to finally figure that out. I will NOT be beat over the head with Roe V Wade anymore. IF anyone in the whole wide world wanted to make abortion illegal it was George Bush, so why are they still legal? Overturning Roe V Wade BY ANYONE would be political suicide. And I am also NOT in favor of late term abortion but I am tired fo the Democratic Left and Religeous Fanatics on the Right as well, using Roe V Wade for their own personal agendas.

And I am also not in favor of using abortion as birth control.

Roe v. Wade is kind of like the 2nd Amendment; it ain't going anywhere.

Wyoming Dem
06-05-2009, 10:16 PM
Roe v. Wade is kind of like the 2nd Amendment; it ain't going anywhere.
And Spang, I absolutely believe that because George Bush and his Army of Christians would have done anything possible to get rid of it and did not or could not. Late term abortions are just wrong unless it is to save the life of the mother. There is NO EXCUSE for anyone waiting that long (just like there is pretty much no excuse for anyone getting pregnant by "accident" anymore) Numerous kinds of birthcontrol are FREE at clinics and Planned Parenthood and modern birthcontrol methods are certainly more effective than they were 20 years ago. With AIDS and all of the other STD's out there, I simply cannot understand why sexually active kids or adults are not protecting themselves...I just don't get it.

AngusAwesome
06-05-2009, 10:50 PM
There is NO EXCUSE for anyone waiting that long (just like there is pretty much no excuse for anyone getting pregnant by "accident" anymore).

There are genetic anomalies and disorders that do not exhibit symptoms or cannot be observed before a certain time; sometimes a fetus will show 'signs' of a disorder but not be for-certain unviable or doomed to live a short, painful existence. The final diagnosis may only be obtainable after the "late-term" cut-off. It's not about people who just wait around until one day they stop procrastinating and pull themselves down to the clinic for an abortion, it's people who have to make gut wrenching decisions on limited information and time. As I showed above, there are only 100 abortions a year occurring after 24 weeks; if people could and/or wanted to abort late-term babies freely that number would be much higher

Wyoming Dem
06-05-2009, 11:01 PM
There are genetic anomalies and disorders that do not exhibit symptoms or cannot be observed before a certain time; sometimes a fetus will show 'signs' of a disorder but not be for-certain unviable or doomed to live a short, painful existence. The final diagnosis may only be obtainable after the "late-term" cut-off. It's not about people who just wait around until one day they stop procrastinating and pull themselves down to the clinic for an abortion, it's people who have to make gut wrenching decisions on limited information and time. As I showed above, there are only 100 abortions a year occurring after 24 weeks; if people could and/or wanted to abort late-term babies freely that number would be much higher
I do realize that there are certainly legitimate reasons and I would NEVER second guess any parent who had to make that kind of decision. I am ignorant here...can ANYONE ask for and receive a late term abortion? With the number at 100 I am thinking probably not? In which case, I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground. I guess I always assumed it was a choice available to any woman...

AngusAwesome
06-05-2009, 11:09 PM
I'm not sure, I know the late George Tiller did turn patients away. I think it's provider's discretion. There aren't many providers and I think they try very very hard to make sure they're only doing 'ethical' abortions, since they're under a microscope. Women are free to request an abortion at any time but without a compelling reason, the providers are very likely to say no.

CGP
06-05-2009, 11:23 PM
And speaking of late-term abortions, they're pretty damn rare. According to Fox News, there were only 100 abortions in the entire country performed each year after 24 weeks gestation. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,880,00.html]


I don't think that figure is accurate? (and the link is no longer working?)

In this article (see table on page 12), it estimated the number of late-term abortions (after 24 weeks) in 2001 in the USA to be around 2,400. Late-term abortions, however, represent an extremely small percentage of all abortions in the USA each year.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2008/09/18/Report_Trends_Women_Obtaining_Abortions.pdf

CGP
06-05-2009, 11:29 PM
At this link you can look at each state's laws/policies regarding abortion.

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/state-profiles/

Tiller practised in Kansas, not exactly an easy place to do the kind of work that he did:

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/state-profiles/kansas.html?templateName=lawdetails&issueID=3&ssumID=2590


Kansas' post-viability abortion restriction provides that no abortion may be performed after viability unless the attending physician and another financially and legally independent physician determine that an abortion is necessary to preserve the woman's life or continuation of the pregnancy would cause a "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" of the woman. Kan. Stat. Ann. § 65-6703(a) (Enacted 1992; Last Amended 1998). The Kansas Attorney General has interpreted this exception to include mental health. Op. Kan. Att'y. Gen. 2000-020.



In addition, Kansas bans the performance of certain post-viability abortion procedures (not including the suction curettage procedure, suction aspiration procedure, and certain dilation and evacuation procedures). Kan. Stat. Ann. § 65-6721 (Enacted 1998). This ban provides that performance of certain post-viability abortion procedures is a felony, unless the physician and another legally and financially independent physician determine that the abortion is necessary to preserve the woman's life or that continuation of the pregnancy would cause a "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major physical or mental function" of the woman.

Suzan
06-05-2009, 11:37 PM
To answer your questions about the availability and legality of late-term abortions, this is from the article in the opening post:


Late-term abortions are very rare. About one percent of all abortions performed in the United States occur after 21 weeks. The third trimester begins at 24 weeks.

Late-term abortions are severely restricted by law.

In 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the constitutional right to privacy extends to the decision of a woman, in consultation with her physician, to terminate a pregnancy.

The Court also determined, however, that this right is not absolute and it must be balanced against the state's legitimate interest in protecting both the health of the pregnant woman and the developing human life. Therefore, according to Roe, the state's interest in protecting potential life becomes compelling at the point of fetal viability (when the fetus has the capacity for sustained survival outside the uterus). States are allowed to, and indeed have, severely restricted access to abortion in the third-trimester, except, as the Supreme Court has ruled, when necessary to preserve the woman's life or health. In subsequent cases, the Court made clear that viability is a medical determination, which varies with each pregnancy, and that it is the responsibility of the attending physician to make that determination.

As the Guttmacher Institute points out in a brief on this issue, the Supreme Court has held that:

* even after fetal viability, states may not prohibit abortions "necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother;"
* "health" in this context includes both physical and mental health;
* only the physician, in the course of evaluating the specific circumstances of an individual case, can define what constitutes "health" and when a fetus is viable; and
* states cannot require additional physicians to confirm the physician's judgment that the woman's life or health is at risk.

What is viability?

Viability is a medical, not a legal definition.

As pointed out in another excellent brief by Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California:

A fetus is viable when it reaches an "anatomical threshold" when critical organs, such as the lungs and kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator, which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs into the bloodstream.

The brief continues by underscoring that:

While medical advances have increased the survival of infants born between 24 and 28 weeks of gestation, the point of viability has moved little over the past decade; at the earliest, it remains at approximately 24 weeks, where it was when the Supreme Court decided Roe -- a fact acknowledged by the court in its recent decision in PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA V. CASEY. A study of infant survival by researchers at Case Western Reserve University Medical School found that the rate of survival for infants born before 25 weeks gestation has not improved appreciably in recent years.

Most states restrict late-term abortions.

The Guttmacher brief notes that:

* 37 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy.
* 24 states initiate prohibitions at fetal viability.
* 5 states initiate prohibitions in the third trimester.
* 8 states initiate prohibitions after a certain number of weeks, generally 24.

The circumstances under which procedures are permitted after that point vary from state to state. For example:

* 29 states permit abortions to preserve the life or health of the woman;
* 4 states permit abortions to save the life or health of the woman, but use a narrow definition of health;
* 4 states permit abortions only to save the life of the woman.


Some states require the involvement of a second physician when a later-term abortion is performed. Nine states require that a second physician attend in order to treat a fetus if it is born alive. Ten states require that a second physician certify that the abortion is medically necessary.

Kansas law is strict on the issue of late-term abortions.

Kansas law requires that such procedures can only be performed after viability if two independent doctors agree that not to do so would put the mother at risk of irreparable harm by giving birth.
A huge gap in the narrative.

There is a vast gap between the descriptions of Dr. Tiller by members of the extremist right -- who incite lunatics to violence by protraying Tiller as a mass murderer -- and the many women and men who have been served by Dr. Tiller, who refer to him as heroic, kind, compassionate, professional. This gap speaks to the fact that very few -- not least the mainstream media -- understand what he was doing and, and more to the point, why we are asking the wrong people to comment.

In the words of one of the hundreds of people writing messages on the memorial website to Dr. Tiller:

Dr. Tiller was a hero, plain and simple. I am thankful for his life and the gift of high quality health care he provided his patients. My thoughts are with his family, friends and community and my thanks to you for your support of Dr. Tiller despite the tough circumstances.

Dr. Tiller was one of the few doctors providing late-term abortions to people in need in part because he was a committed, ethical, moral medical professional who took seriously his oath to serve the best interests of his patients, and because he was dedicated to supporting women's rights even at the risk of his own life and even under unimaginable daily pressure and threat.

Another poster on his memorial site states:

I think this is an absolute outrage, George Tiller was the only one I had to turn too during an awful moment in my life. He gave my life back and the choice I had to make was painful, personal, and heartwrenching. God bless his family, the church, and everyone who is hurt by this violent act.

He also was one of the few because laws in many places restrict women's access, and because fewer and fewer doctors are trained in these life-saving operations, due to the actions of the far right. Many doctors from out of state referred patients to Dr. Tiller and many revered him.

If you listen to the voices of women served, you understand far more than what the media has told us about who chooses late-term abortion and why.

For these women and their partners, Tiller was not "an abortionist" but a life-saver. He was a man who put himself in jeopardy to ensure that a woman would not have to lose her life to infection or complications in an already-doomed pregnancy. He was a doctor who ensured that women carrying a fetus with fatal or catastrophic abnormalities could make the decision -- if they so chose -- to spare themselves and their families the agony of watching a newborn that could not live endure countless operations and medical procedures in futile attempts to keep it "alive."

A 2006 amicus brief prepared for Gonzales v. Planned Parenthood Federation of America, a case focused on the availability of second trimester abortions, contains a number of stories of women who had to seek out later-term abortions, such as that of Carrie, a 40-year-old woman from the Southwest who was happily married for nine years when she became pregnant. She described the timing of her genetic testing and decision to end her pregnancy:

On November 11, 2005, I elected to have [a] CVS test. . . . Then, the test results came in. . . . We knew chromosome 14 was incompatible with life, and chromosome 22 could mean Cat Eye Syndrome. Both my husband and I wanted the baby very much, and neither one of us was willing to terminate the pregnancy on a "maybe." . . .

I had the amnio on 12/26/05, and the results came in on Jan. 13, 2006. It confirmed without doubt - she had Cat Eye Syndrome tetrasomy in every cell of her body. The last 3 sonograms showed . . . our baby's kidneys were beginning to malfunction. . . . We made this decision because we loved our daughter so much. We didn't want her to suffer the definite and the untold problems she was sure to endure, if she even made it. We made the best decision we could with the information we had. We fought for her. We wanted her. But we didn't want to condem[n] her to [a] life of agony.

Or that of Cara, a married Catholic woman with an almost-three-year-old son, who had "always dreamed of having a big family." She described the time it took to obtain information needed about her pregnancy:

I was about 17 weeks pregnant at the time. . . .[T]hey scheduled us for our Level II ultrasound a few weeks early so they could look in more detail at the baby. . . . A few days [after the ultrasound], we received the news that would change our lives forever. Our son was infected with CMV (cytomegalovirus). This was the worst possible scenario (of the possibilities we were given). . . . Although I have always been pro-choice, I had winced at the thought of late-term abortions or "partial birth" abortions, thinking that it was just inhumane or irresponsible. Now I know differently. In my case, we were not able to confirm our diagnosis until 19 or 20 weeks gestation. I terminated at 22 weeks. . . . I was completely heartbroken.

Numerous other such stories are contained in this brief.

Authors on RH Reality Check, such as Lynda Waddington and Susan Ito, have shared their stories about late-term abortion and the excruciatingly difficult decisions they had to make.
Others have written at length about their experiences of finding their wanted pregnancies were doomed to fail, of facing their own possible death in carrying to term, and leaving their children without a parent.

A collection of "Kansas Stories" can be found, for example, on the site, A Heartbreaking Choice, such as that by Nicholas' Mom, by K.M., and by several others...parents who looked forward to bringing a child into their family but were faced with fetal deformities so severe their child either would not survive pregnancy, would be born only to die, or in which carrying the pregnancy to term would threaten survival of the mother. Other stories are being collected here on RH Reality Check, Facebook, on a website memorial to Dr. Tiller and elsewhere.

None of these women made their choices lightly and it is profoundly disrespectful of them -- indeed it is dangerous to women -- to suggest otherwise for political gain, not to mention commit the horrific acts of violence against providers such as Dr. Tiller who help so many women and men through this agony.

What can you do?

Obviously in this climate, constant political vigilance is needed against the erosion of women's rights in law and in policy, and against the public narrative that shames women and providers, as well as against the actions of the extremist right that daily puts them at risk. This will be increasingly true in the coming months.

More immediately, in honor of Dr. Tiller and the patients he and other providers serve, we are also providing the following links to funds already set up to receive donations in his name. We urge you to consider giving as much as you can.

Two of the funds available in memory of Dr. Tiller include:

George Tiller Memorial Abortion Fund
c/o National Network of Abortion Funds
42 Seaverns Ave.
Boston, MA 02130

Or you may donate to the Tiller Memorial Fund at NNAF online.

The Women's Reproductive Rights Assistance Project is also accepting donations in Dr. Tiller's name.

The Source

AngusAwesome
06-06-2009, 12:31 AM
Let me try this again:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,880,00.html

Maybe the brackets messed it up? If it's still not working I got the link from this blog post: http://edgeofthewest.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/four-months-three-weeks-and-two-days-of-poor-arguments/. It's near the bottom. There's also a handy pie-chart there.

Also thank you Suzan and CGP for finding more comprehensive info.

Classical Liberal
06-06-2009, 03:13 AM
Good thread peoples. Abortion is such a complex subject I think, as both sides have legitimate points.