6-29-09: "Chavez threatens military action over Honduras coup" (Reuters)

[Suzan]

Chavez threatens military action over Honduras coup

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Sunday put troops on alert after a coup in Honduras and said he would respond militarily if his envoy to the Central American country was kidnapped or killed.

Chavez said Honduran soldiers took away the Cuban ambassador and left the Venezuelan ambassador on the side of a road after beating him during the army's coup against his leftist ally, Honduran President Manuel Zelaya.

The Honduran army ousted Zelaya and exiled him in Central America's first military coup since the Cold War, after he upset the army by trying to win re-election.

Chavez said on state television if his ambassador to Venezuela was killed, or if troops entered the Venezuelan Embassy, "that military junta would be entering a de facto state of war. We would have to act militarily ... I have put the armed forces of Venezuela on alert."

Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa, part of a coalition of leftist governments headed by Chavez that includes Honduras, said he would support military action if Ecuador's diplomats or those of its allies were threatened.

The socialist Chavez has in the past threatened to use his armed forces in the region but never followed through. He said that if a new government is sworn in after the coup it would be defeated.

"We will bring them down, we will bring them down, I tell you," he said, while hundreds of red-shirted supporters gathered outside Venezuela's presidential palace in solidarity with Zelaya.

HISTORY OF COUPS

The United States has long accused the Venezuelan former soldier of being a destabilizing force in Latin America. Chavez himself tried to take power in a coup in 1992 and was briefly ousted in a 2002 putsch but was reinstated after protests.

Chavez, who accused the administration of former U.S. President George W. Bush of backing his removal, said there should be an investigation into whether Washington had a hand in Zelaya's ouster.

"They will have to get to the bottom of how much of a hand the CIA and other imperial bodies had in this," he said.

The White House denied any U.S. participation in the coup. "There was no U.S. involvement in this action against President Zelaya," a White House official told Reuters.

President Barack Obama said he was deeply concerned by the events in Honduras and Secretary of State Hilary Clinton condemned the action taken against Zelaya. A senior U.S. official said Washington recognizes only Zelaya as president.

The United States supported a number of military coups in Central America during the Cold War and used Honduras as a base for its counter-insurgency operations in the region in the 1980s.

Washington still has several hundred troops stationed at Soto Cano Air Base, a Honduran military installation that is also the headquarters for a regional U.S. joint task force that conducts humanitarian, drug and disaster relief operations.

Chavez and other Latin American leaders from his ALBA coalition, including Ecuador's President Rafael Correa and Bolivia's President Evo Morales, were headed to Nicaragua on Sunday to discuss what action to take over Honduras.

ALBA's nine members also include Cuba, Honduras and Nicaragua. Ecuador said Sunday it will not recognize any new government in Honduras.

full story here: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE55R1S820090628?sp=true

[The_Basseteer]

Except it was not a coup....it was whatever the opposite of a coup is. Honduran President Manuel Zelaya attempted to go around his nation's constitution and set him self up with another term in office (can you say president for life? Sure you can...), and the Honduran Supreme Court and their congress ordered the military to remove him from office. With the rise of conservatism in Europe and now this it's beginning to look like the 21st century is going to be hard on leftists.

[Suzan]

Our president is calling it an illegal coup. Therefore we're not recognizing anyone but Zelaya as president.

Is there such thing as a legal coup?

Apparently Zelaya will be at the UN tomorrow. That should be interesting.

Also, to be clear, Chevaz is threatening military action IF his envoy is kidnapped or killed. Not just because, although who knows what this could boil up into.

[hobbitt]

Is there such thing as a legal coup?

.


Yes, three definitions in the Hobbitt Urbanist Dictionary (HUD):

"Honestly, Judge, I think that black robe looks absolutely smashing on you."

"The pigeons were couping softly on the courthouse roof."

"Chinese diplomat Wellington Coup served in the UN and at the International Court."

[maximuss]

where is Honduras . In Africa ?

[Spang]

where is Honduras . In Africa ?

Central America.

[Suzan]

Yes, three definitions in the Hobbitt Urbanist Dictionary (HUD):

"Honestly, Judge, I think that black robe looks absolutely smashing on you."

"The pigeons were couping softly on the courthouse roof."

"Chinese diplomat Wellington Coup served in the UN and at the International Court."

LOL, thanks for the confusing the issue. :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Suzan]

"The pigeons were couping softly on the courthouse roof."

Or cooing? Hey, it's pronounced the same.

[hobbitt]

Or cooing? Hey, it's pronounced the same.

Paraphrasing (*) Claudette Colbert, "the P is silent."

* From her infamous, if apocryphal, comment to Jean Harlow who mispronounced Colbert's surname: "The T is silent, as in Harlow."

[Suzan]

Is it possible to post a map of the area in this thread, so we can see where Honduras, Venezuela and some of the other ALBA members are in proximity to each other? I'd do it, but I don't know how and my computer's not being cooperative lately.

BTW, I found the following on another website. At the end is a list of the ALBA members.

Bolivarian Alliance Condemns Attempted Coup in Honduras

Nine-Country Bolivarian Alliance Condemns Coup Attempt in Honduras

Declaration of the member states of the Bolivarian Alliance for the Peoples of Our America [formerly known as ALBA] condemning the coup d’état now under way against the president of the Republic of Honduras, José Manuel Zelaya.

The member states of the Bolivarian Alliance for the Americas, represented here at the United Nations, are deeply concerned with regard to present events in the Republic of Honduras. They declare the following:

• We emphasize that the coup d’état now under way aims to block the achievement of a democratic vote by the people called to establish whether the people wish to convene a Constituent Assembly.

• We condemn this coup-like action against the genuine aspirations of Honduran citizens who insist on being taken into account through democratic forms of expression and consultation.

• We call on the international community to reject this effort to break with the democratic, constitutional order, and to reject any violent and destabilizing moves against the Honduran people and government.

• We proclaim our unconditional solidarity with compañero Presidente José Manuel Zelaya and the sister people of Honduras.

• We reiterate our firm support of the declaration in support of the people’s referendum in Honduras, adopted by the ALBA summit meeting that took place yesterday, June 24, in the city of Maracay, Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

New York, June 25, 2009

Antigua and Barbuda
Plurinational State of Bolivia
Cuba
Dominica
Ecuador
Honduras
Nicaragua
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela

http://venezuelawearewithyou.blogspot.com/

[Spang]

How's this?

http://www.travelblog.org/pix/maps/central-america-caribbean.jpg

[Suzan]

How's this?

http://www.travelblog.org/pix/maps/central-america-caribbean.jpg
Beautiful! Perfect! Thank you!

The article gives the impression that Venezuela and Honduras are neighbors, which would make military action quite convenient. But nope, they're not even close.

[CCClinton]

I don't know that I've ever been less proud to be an American.


A nation that once stood as a beacon for freedom, is now covering for a would-be dictator. Honduras has done everything by their Constitution. I have family there and the majority of the country supports this action. The president was overstepping his bounds and was warned many times by the Supreme Court to not abuse his powers. He has neglected many of his duties and his primary motivation seemed to be discovering new ways to increase his power and make his rule indefinite.

Most of his cabinet either quit in protest of his policies, or was fired for refusing to go along. He imported ballots and security "specialists" from Venezuela for his special referendum and was basically doing everything by the Chavez playbook to set himself up as president for life. Constitutional law, Congress and the courts be damned. He and his army of thugs were dead-set on bribing as many people as it took, usurping taxpayer money to fund this referendum and keep going until they achieved their desired results.


I'm not sure why Hillary is falling for this nonsense, or more likely she's just covering for the ineptness of her boss. Her response was much more guarded, more responsible and far more reasonable. Obama, who took great pains to not "meddle" in Iranian abuse of protestors, really jumped the gun on this one. This was no "coup" or military takeover. The military promptly gave up control and the 2nd in charge was sworn in as president, exactly as their constitution requires.

This was a country getting rid of an abusive leader. Chavez and the rest are pissed because they lost a bosom buddy and a key conductor of the drug trade passing through Honduras. Since Zelaya has been president, corruption, crime and drug concerns have multiplied exponentially.

[Laura Cereta]

I think the U.S. is making a mistake. Again some have forgotten our history. When we refused to honor Britain's taxes, skirmished with their soldiers, declared ourselves independent, and then fought a Revolutionary War, what would the final results have been if France had not eventually decided to openly help? Would there be a USA?

[NativeSun]

I don't know that I've ever been less proud to be an American.


A nation that once stood as a beacon for freedom, is now covering for a would-be dictator. Honduras has done everything by their Constitution. I have family there and the majority of the country supports this action. The president was overstepping his bounds and was warned many times by the Supreme Court to not abuse his powers. He has neglected many of his duties and his primary motivation seemed to be discovering new ways to increase his power and make his rule indefinite.

Most of his cabinet either quit in protest of his policies, or was fired for refusing to go along. He imported ballots and security "specialists" from Venezuela for his special referendum and was basically doing everything by the Chavez playbook to set himself up as president for life. Constitutional law, Congress and the courts be damned. He and his army of thugs were dead-set on bribing as many people as it took, usurping taxpayer money to fund this referendum and keep going until they achieved their desired results.


I'm not sure why Hillary is falling for this nonsense, or more likely she's just covering for the ineptness of her boss. Her response was much more guarded, more responsible and far more reasonable. Obama, who took great pains to not "meddle" in Iranian abuse of protestors, really jumped the gun on this one. This was no "coup" or military takeover. The military promptly gave up control and the 2nd in charge was sworn in as president, exactly as their constitution requires.

This was a country getting rid of an abusive leader. Chavez and the rest are pissed because they lost a bosom buddy and a key conductor of the drug trade passing through Honduras. Since Zelaya has been president, corruption, crime and drug concerns have multiplied exponentially.

I think that the fact that Chavez wants to intervene speaks volumes to the character of Zelaya.

[cindyb]

This is another situation we need to stay out of, let someone else do it.

[smiledr]

I think that the fact that Chavez wants to intervene speaks volumes to the character of Zelaya.

I think the fact that Obama wants to intervene speaks volumes.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9955JGG0&show_article=1

WASHINGTON (AP)—The White House says it sees no acceptable solution to the ouster of the president of Honduras other than returning him to power.

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Tuesday that State Department officials have been in touch with ousted President Manuel Zelaya, and the White House is continuing to work on the situation

[Spang]

This is just more proof that Obama is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

[CCClinton]

I think the fact that Obama wants to intervene speaks volumes.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9955JGG0&show_article=1



I think that if Zelaya returns to Honduras, the only thing he will get for his troubles is a bullet in the head. His entire cabinet stood against him. The attorney general filed charges against him. The Supreme Court, Congress and his own political party oppose his tyrannical ambitions. Under no condition should he be treated as if he has any sort of legitimacy or actual power. His days are done.


He was pulled out of bed, thrown on a flight, sent to another country and left there for good. That is the ultimate way of saying "you ain't gotta go home, but you get up on outta here." In spite of this supposed "coup", a paltry 100 or so protestor's showed up to express their outrage over a would be dictator getting the foot to rectum treatment.


I don't know if Obama is trying to save face here in his ongoing quest to placate Chavez but there are definitely folks in the State Department who are pleased with this outcome. Zelaya was just another anti-American wannabe of the Communist Ruler's club that includes Chavez, Ortega, Castro and lately Correa.

The fact that their government actually employed the checks and balances as intended, that is, two branches of government preventing abuse by the third, is a good sign to see. So far it seems the majority of Hondurans support this action. His only support comes from the leaders of certain trade unions that he bribed. I don't see why the US needs to be involved in this at all, and especially why they should be "meddling" in their private affairs.

[Laura Cereta]

President Barack Obama said he was deeply concerned by the events in Honduras and Secretary of State Hilary Clinton condemned the action taken against Zelaya. A senior U.S. official said Washington recognizes only Zelaya as president.



When did Hillary condemn the action taken against Zelaya? I've seen no video and heard no statement. I'll go look for some confirmation.

[Laura Cereta]

Found it...


The United States has been working with our partners in the OAS to fashion a strong consensus condemning the detention and expulsion of President Zelaya and calling for the full restoration of democratic order in Honduras. Our immediate priority is to restore full democratic and constitutional order in that country.



As we move forward, all parties have a responsibility to address the underlying problems that led to yesterday's events in a way that enhances democracy and the rule of law in Honduras. To that end, we will continue working with the OAS and other partners to construct a process of dialogue and engagement that will promote the restoration of democratic order, address the serious problems of political polarization in Honduras, restore confidence in their institutions of government, and ensure that Honduras moves successfully towards its scheduled presidential elections in November of this year.



QUESTION: Do you believe - you used the words "detention" and "expulsion." Do you believe that a military coup d'état has taken place in Honduras, or are you studying a legal - formal legal determination that a coup d'état has taken place and that would therefore trigger the appropriations - (inaudible) appropriations aid cutoff that is required under U.S. law?

SECRETARY CLINTON: Well, we do think that this has evolved into a coup. The president, as you know, has been expelled. Another person has been substituted for the president. But we think that this is a fast-moving situation that requires constant attention, which we are certainly providing to it, along with our bilateral partners and through the OAS as our multilateral vehicle. We are encouraging that there be a delegation going to Honduras following the Extraordinary General Assembly tomorrow to begin working with the parties to try to restore constitutional order. So we are withholding any formal legal determination. But I think the reality is that having expelled the president, we have a lot of work to do to try to help the Hondurans get back on the democratic path they've been on for a number of years now.



QUESTION: Secretary Clinton, isn't the U.S. in an uncomfortable position nonetheless, because you're invoking democratic norms to restore a president who some would argue was taking illegal steps to stay in office?

SECRETARY CLINTON: You know, Jill, I think it's important that we stand for the rule of law and democracy and constitutional order. And when I talk about supporting the work that's being done in the OAS, and certainly a distinguished delegation to work with the parties in Honduras, I think that all parties involved have to take a step back and look at how the institutions within their democracy are supposed to be working. So there are certain concerns about orders by independent judicial officials that should be followed and the like, but the extraordinary step taken of arresting and expelling the president is our first and foremost concern right now.

Then we do want to work with the parties, as I said, to try to return to a rule of law, and that means for everybody. Everybody needs to kind of take a step back here and take a deep breath. And so, look, we have a lot at stake in maintaining our democracy and not going backwards, and we would expect all parties to play a responsible role in doing that.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/dev/mt-static/images/logo-sub.gif (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/06/29/press_conference_with_secretary_clinton_97238.html )

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/06/29/press_conference_with_secretary_clinton_97238.html

[NativeSun]

I think the fact that Obama wants to intervene speaks volumes.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9955JGG0&show_article=1

Sad...but true.