(July 19, 2009): "Netanyahu’s Talk of Peace Finds Few True Believers" (by Isabel Kershner, New York Times)

[CGP]

Full Article @ NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/20/world/middleeast/20israel.html?hp)


In the weeks since Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, finally accepted the principle of a Palestinian state, with qualifications, there has been deep skepticism about his sincerity.

There has been deep skepticism about the commitment of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, seen below right during a cabinet meeting, to a two-state solution.

On the Palestinian side, aides to the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, have called Mr. Netanyahu’s grudging endorsement of Palestinian statehood, under international pressure, a disingenuous public relations exercise.

But even senior officials and prominent figures of his conservative Likud Party have been busy explaining, privately and publicly, why they think there is not likely to be a Palestinian state any time soon, in ways that raise even more questions about the current government’s commitment to reaching a final peace accord.

And Mr. Netanyahu’s diplomatic turnaround was greeted by a notable silence among the Likud firebrands and hawks, widely interpreted here as a sign that they feel they have nothing to fear.

Marking his first 100 days in office earlier this month, Mr. Netanyahu credited his government with bringing about national consensus on “the idea of two states for two peoples,” employing the language of the internationally accepted formula for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for the first time. On Sunday he called on the Palestinian leadership to meet for peace talks.

Mr. Netanyahu has been explicit, though, about his conditions for a deal. He says the Palestinians must recognize Israel as the state of the Jewish people. Palestinian negotiators reject such recognition, contending it would preclude the demand of the Palestinian refugees of 1948 and their descendants for the right of return to their former homes, and be detrimental to the status of Israel’s Arab minority.

Mr. Netanyahu adds that the problem of the refugees has to be resolved outside the borders of Israel and that Israel will only accept defensible borders, and he wants international guarantees that any Palestinian state will be fully demilitarized.


Mr. Netanyahu has publicly called for talks on diplomatic and economic peace, but each side blames the other for the fact that negotiations remain stalled.

The Israelis say the Palestinians are being passive and have made a complete freeze in settlement building a condition for resuming talks.

Saeb Erekat, a senior Abbas aide and veteran Palestinian negotiator, said stopping settlement construction, as the Americans have demanded, was “an Israeli obligation, not a Palestinian condition.” There can be no compromise, he added. “Either they stop or they do not,” he said.

The Israelis say Mr. Erekat is just posturing. Mr. Erekat, meanwhile, said of the Israelis, “They are the ones refusing to meet with us.”

Adding to the circular feeling of the conflict, Mr. Erekat stated that if the Israelis were willing to resume negotiations like before on the core, final status issues of the conflict, including borders, refugees, Jerusalem and the settlements, “then Saeb Erekat will come.”

Under the circumstances, experts say, the Obama administration’s pursuit of a speedy two-state solution to the conflict can go only so far.

“The key to making peace lies with the Israelis and the Palestinians,” said Mr. Gold, the former ambassador. The United States cannot make peace, he said, or want it more than the two sides.

[The_Basseteer]

Or...maybe not..

Report: Israel Preparing to Strike Against Iran (http://www.poligazette.com/2009/07/19/report-israel-preparing-to-strike-against-iran/)

Arutz Sheva (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132430) reports that the Israeli army is preparing to strike against Iran’s nuclear installations later this year. It quotes sources telling the British daily The Times that Europe and the US have reluctantly given Israel the green light in exchange for a settlement stop in the Palestinian territories and Israeli support for a Palestinian state.

As two Israeli missile-class warships joined a navy submarine in the Red Sea, an Israeli defense source made it clear that the moves are intended as a threatening message to Iran.

“This is preparation that should be taken seriously,” the unnamed source told the London Times. “Israel is investing time in preparing itself for the complexity of an attack on Iran.”…

The exercises “come at a time when Western diplomats are offering support for an Israeli strike on Iran in return for Israeli concessions on the formation of a Palestinian state,” the Times said. It quoted an anonymous British official as saying that if the deal completed, it would make an Israeli strike on Iran realistic “within the year.”
Israel can only act with America’s and Europe’s permission. Israel cannot afford to stand alone. It’s simply too small a country, with too small a population, and with too many enemies. If destroying some settlements and / or promising not to build more and to support the principle of Palestinian statehood results in the West supporting Israeli strikes against Iran’s nuclear facilities, so be it.

As the old Chinese saying goes, "May you live in interesting times"..it's looking a lot like that's just what we're going to do.

[Brooke]

This will be interesting. Especially since Israel is just letting everyone know where they're going to strike in regards to Iran. Smart. Let the Iranians know where you're going to hit them. Nice one, Bibi.

The headline makes me laugh. Now everyone's realizing that Bibi isn't serious about peace. Wow, what a shock. Not.

[Artists4Hillary]

"Unnamed Israeli Defense Source"?

"London Times"? ( the Israel-hating paper- the one who declared Bush was going to bomb Iran)

"Anonymous British official"?
"Diplomats"?
"Senior unnamed European diplomat"?
"the report"?
"Believed to carry nuke missiles" (believed by whom on what basis)?
:rotfl:

Bibi will NEVER make those kinds of concessions. And isn't it wonderful that the U.S. ( well, Obama) said that Israel is a sovereign country and can do what it wants? Covert meaning: We're not going to help Israel, but it's a sure-fire way of getting rid of Iranian nukes while putting the blame on Israel.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Bibi has every right to demand pre-conditions for a two state solution. I don't see the Pals even "begrudgingly" accepting Israel as a Jewish state. But if they think that Bibi will give up the Golan Heights and divide Jerusalem, they had better stop smoking what they're smoking.

Israel is in talks with Russia. The U.S. better mind their P's and Q's.

[Brooke]

Bibi has every right to demand pre-conditions for a two state solution

I don't remember a single PM that's gone to negotiations with the PA without any pre conditions. This really is nothing new.

[Centipede]

Funny how Obama refuses to 'meddle' into the slaughtering of Iranian protesters but doesn't have a problem interferring with Jews building homes on their own land.

[Brooke]

Funny how Obama refuses to 'meddle' into the slaughtering of Iranian protesters but doesn't have a problem interferring with Jews building homes on their own land.

He hasn't done anything different on the settlement issue that Bush, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, etc, haven't all done. I really don't understand the outrage about Obama with this when every President before him has taken the exact same stance.

[Kbentleyis]

Israel will do all it can to secure it's country. It doesn't need America to call the shots. And, yes, Centipede, strange... isn't it?

[Brooke]

Israel will do all it can to secure it's country. It doesn't need America to call the shots

It certainly has needed the US in the past. If Israel didn't need the US's help, they wouldn't ask for it every time they start peace negotiations.

Oh and where does Israel get all the money it needs for arms and military spending? Right, the US. If this operation in Iran doesn't go well, Israel will be begging for our help.

[Ikasu]

CF = voice of reason

[Brooke]

CF = voice of reason

LMAO. Thanks. I do my best. I think because people are so anti Obama that they don't realize that he's not doing anything differently in the Middle East that his predecessors haven't already done.

On the flip side, some are so Pro Netanyahu that they don't realize he's not really doing things much differently than his predecessors have done. Even Yitzhak Rabin did some settlement expansion after the Clinton administration asked him not to, and his and Bill's friendship remained in tact. It's just politics and posturing. I'm not reading that much into it and I don't think anybody else should either.

But history has shown that Israel and the US need each other. Regardless of what people say, it's a bond that will remain until the end of time. They're not always going to agree but a lot of the time, Israel DOES comply to what the US wants. And vice versa.

[Centipede]

He hasn't done anything different on the settlement issue that Bush, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, etc, haven't all done. I really don't understand the outrage about Obama with this when every President before him has taken the exact same stance.

Didn't Obama market himself as the candidate of 'change' rather than the candidate of "the same"?

The fact that he cares more about Jews building homes on their own land than Iranians being tortured and bludgeoned fighting for Democracy is troublesome.

[Ikasu]

The fact that he cares more about Jews building homes on their own land than Iranians being tortured and bludgeoned fighting for Democracy is troublesome.

It's funny that the people who care so much about the Iranians now are the same people who wanted to bomb the country a year ago. As I mentioned in another thread that didn't get much attention, WE caused the mess in Iran. We overthrew the democratically elected government of Mohammad Mosaddeq, replacing a parliamentary democracy with a dictatorship in 1953. The resentment of the coup led to the '79 Iranian revolution which left us with the current regime.

And how nice of you to suggest that Obama is antisemitic. At least have the courage to say it directly.

[Centipede]

It's funny that the people who care so much about the Iranians now are the same people who wanted to bomb the country a year ago. As I mentioned in another thread that didn't get much attention, WE caused the mess in Iran. We overthrew the democratically elected government of Mohammad Mosaddeq, replacing a parliamentary democracy with a dictatorship in 1953. The resentment of the coup led to the '79 Iranian revolution which left us with the current regime.

And how nice of you to suggest that Obama is antisemitic. At least have the courage to say it directly.

Can you point out in my post where I said Obama is anti-semitic? You can't because I didn't. I simply stated that Obama is putting more concern into Jews building in Jerusalem than Iranians being bludgeoned. That's a fact, not opinion. And if you want to play the anti-semite card then let me ask you this. Why is it only the Jews he specifically targets? There are plenty of Christians, Buddhists, and Atheists living in Jerusalem and he doesn't object to them growing in those areas. And where in my post did I say i wanted Iran bombed a year ago? You are putting words in my mouth.

[Ikasu]

Can you point out in my post where I said Obama is anti-semitic? You can't because I didn't.

I said you suggested it. And it looks like I'm right:


And if you want to play the anti-semite card then let me ask you this.

Why is it only the Jews he specifically targets? There are plenty of Christians, Buddhists, and Atheists living in Jerusalem and he doesn't object to them growing in those areas.

What are you talking about? He's negotiating with the Israeli government, not the Jewish people in Israel (who are 75% of the population, how convenient that you can say he's "targeting" the Jews since Israel is a ... Jewish State!). Do you know how international politics works? You're playing the antisemitism card because you can't explain the difference between what Obama is doing now compared to past presidents.

And where in my post did I say i wanted Iran bombed a year ago? You are putting words in my mouth.

In general, the people (read: conservatives) who are now "supporting" the Iranian people are the same people (read: conservatives) who wanted to bomb Iran a year ago. It's so disingenuous. Are you one of those people? I don't know.

[Brooke]

It's funny that the people who care so much about the Iranians now are the same people who wanted to bomb the country a year ago. As I mentioned in another thread that didn't get much attention, WE caused the mess in Iran. We overthrew the democratically elected government of Mohammad Mosaddeq, replacing a parliamentary democracy with a dictatorship in 1953. The resentment of the coup led to the '79 Iranian revolution which left us with the current regime.

And how nice of you to suggest that Obama is antisemitic. At least have the courage to say it directly.

I'll ditto this statement.

[Artists4Hillary]

It certainly has needed the US in the past. If Israel didn't need the US's help, they wouldn't ask for it every time they start peace negotiations.

Oh and where does Israel get all the money it needs for arms and military spending? Right, the US. If this operation in Iran doesn't go well, Israel will be begging for our help.

Pardon me, but Israel gives back to the U.S. Israel does not exactly take from this country and not give back. It does in spades. And yes, Israel should cut ties and not come to the U.S. anymore. I want the Israelis to drop this country like a hot potato and trade with Russia and China. In fact, Israel is in talks with Russia. Israel needs to stop giving this country what the U.S. has relied upon forever. America is an ingrate.

BTW, Israel recognizes same-sex marriage, which is a lot more than I can say about this sorry country. But I guess that doesn't matter to anyone.

Do some research before you make such ignorant statements.

[Brooke]

Pardon me, but Israel gives back to the U.S. Israel does not exactly take from this country and not give back. It does in spades. And yes, Israel should cut ties and not come to the U.S. anymore. I want the Israelis to drop this country like a hot potato and trade with Russia and China. In fact, Israel is in talks with Russia. Israel needs to stop giving this country what the U.S. has relied upon forever.

BTW, Israel recognizes same-sex marriage, which is a lot more than I can say about this sorry country. But I guess that doesn't matter to anyone.

Do some research before you make such ignorant statements.

Excuse me but maybe you shouldn't accuse me of making an ignorant statement that I didn't make. Where did I say that Israel DIDN'T give back? I never said such a thing because I'm quite aware it DOES give back. I was answering the argument from some that Israel didn't need the US.

And what does same sex marriage have to do with anything? I never said anything about that. And I am also quite aware that they recognize it but there are a lot of religious groups in Israel that don't.

Geez, thanks for attacking me for something I didn't even do.

[Ikasu]

Excuse me but maybe you shouldn't accuse me of making an ignorant statement that I didn't make. Where did I say that Israel DIDN'T give back? I never said such a thing because I'm quite aware it DOES give back. I was answering the argument from some that Israel didn't need the US.

And what does same sex marriage have to do with anything? I never said anything about that. And I am also quite aware that they recognize it but there are a lot of religious groups in Israel that don't.

Geez, thanks for attacking me for something I didn't even do.

It's A4H's style. The slightest criticism of Israel, even from an Israel supporter, sets her off.

[Artists4Hillary]

Excuse me but maybe you shouldn't accuse me of making an ignorant statement that I didn't make. Where did I say that Israel DIDN'T give back? I never said such a thing because I'm quite aware it DOES give back. I was answering the argument from some that Israel didn't need the US.

And what does same sex marriage have to do with anything? I never said anything about that. And I am also quite aware that they recognize it but there are a lot of religious groups in Israel that don't.

Geez, thanks for attacking me for something I didn't even do.

My apologies if I didn't understand where you were coming from. I apologize for the needless attack.

But Israel doesn't need the U.S. and Israel knows it. The Orthodox make up very little of the Knesset, so they don't have as much power as some think they do. Israel needs to show some gumption and act on what they know.

I'm sorry, but I am 100% pro-Israel. That's just my view, even though some in Israel don't agree. As some people on this forum know, it's my birth country. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

[Brooke]

A4H, I know where you're coming from. You know I know that. :)

I'm 100% pro Israel too, even if I'm not from there. As a Jew, it's my home as well.