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View Full Version : (07.24.09): "Has Global Warming Stopped?" (by Jim Manzi, NRO)


Laura Cereta
07-25-2009, 01:17 PM
Ezra Klein, Kevin Drum, and Ryan Avent all have posts up that attack George Will’s statement that “If you’re 29, there has been no global warming for your entire adult life.” Kevin Drum describes this as “idiotic,” Ryan as “moronic,” and Ezra responds, of course, with a chart. So does the always-numerate Kevin Drum, and I’ll use his version of the chart:

http://theamericanscene.com/images/132.gif

The funny thing is that if you zoom in on about the last ten years, you see this:

http://theamericanscene.com/images/133.gif

There has not been a lot of measured warming for the last ten years.
It’s hard to dispute this. What Ezra, Kevin, and Ryan are arguing is the idiotic, moronic, or whatever notion that the past ten years of data disproves the theory of AGW. Their basic argument is “sure, but look at the long-term trend.” I agree with them about the conclusion that the last ten years of raw data don’t falsify the theory (and have argued this at many times in many places), but I’m not sure any of them have thought through this question fully.

If I observe that it is cooler in New York today than yesterday, no reasonable person would take that as proof that AGW theory is wrong. On the other hand, if we had rapid growth of human population and rapid fossil-fuel-dependent economic development for the next 1,000 years with no increase in surface temperatures, no reasonable person would claim that AGW in anything like its current form had not been disproven. The question is at what point between 1 day and 1,000 years do I have enough evidence that I can reasonably reject the theory? It seems to me that you need a rational standard to answer this question before you simply call ten years “moronic” a priori.

In fact, it’s more complicated than that. If we had no warming over the past ten years (true) and lots more CO2 in the air (true) but also a huge increase in volcanic activity (not true, but posited as an illustration), this would not be evidence that AGW theory was untrue, because the models used to predict warming would have called for no warming because all the particulate matter thrown up by the volcanoes should offset the effect of the CO2. So what we are really looking for is the degree of divergence between the predictions of the models used as the basis for long-run warming predictions versus actual temperatures, in order to falsify or corroborate the operational theory that we can predict future long-run temperature impacts attributable to CO2 emissions. The rigorous version of the question then is: What is a valid falsification period for AGW models?
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Read more @
http://www2.nationalreview.com/images/logo_weekend.jpg (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MmRiOGVkM2UwNjk1MTlkNzllMjZiMzViMTI0ODI4OWY=)

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MmRiOGVkM2UwNjk1MTlkNzllMjZiMzViMTI0ODI4OWY=

foxyladi
07-25-2009, 01:36 PM
we are headed for the next ice age.

CGP
07-25-2009, 01:57 PM
A forum poll from a while back:

Are we in a global warming cycle? (http://www.commongroundpolitics.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=41623)

Horizon
07-25-2009, 01:59 PM
It's gonna be about 108 here today, and through next week.

I'm calling it Global Warming.:rolleyes:

Suzan
07-25-2009, 02:05 PM
In fact, it’s more complicated than that. If we had no warming over the past ten years (true) and lots more CO2 in the air (true) but also a huge increase in volcanic activity (not true, but posited as an illustration), this would not be evidence that AGW theory was untrue, because the models used to predict warming would have called for no warming because all the particulate matter thrown up by the volcanoes should offset the effect of the CO2. So what we are really looking for is the degree of divergence between the predictions of the models used as the basis for long-run warming predictions versus actual temperatures, in order to falsify or corroborate the operational theory that we can predict future long-run temperature impacts attributable to CO2 emissions. The rigorous version of the question then is: What is a valid falsification period for AGW models?

Complicated? Good grief! I was with him until he threw the volcanic activity in there.

Basically he's saying we don't know and the models on which predictions are based aren't adequate models.

Alex01
07-25-2009, 02:15 PM
"Has Global Warming Stopped?"

No.

This has been "Simple Answers to Simple Questions." Thank you for playing!:D

Kbentleyis
07-25-2009, 02:45 PM
If there is no "reliable" way to indicate GW, then how can statistics and figures be tossed out to alarm the population.

There was more volcanic actions and earth erruptions millions of years ago--excavating our earth proved it, we're still here. As we all know, long before man ever walked this earth it went through fire, floods, and ice. Meteor bombardment changed the environment as well.

Kind of makes our man-made polution seem like small change.

sojourner
07-25-2009, 03:43 PM
BINGO!

Basically he's saying we don't know and the models on which predictions are based aren't adequate models.

All the arguments voicing concern about global warming are based upon models that have not been verified and have known weaknesses.

• Clouds, which have a major effect upon earth temperature, are not adequately modeled.

• Climate models use a very high positive feedback for water vapor. This feedback has never been observed in nature.

• More recent studies show evidence that the feedback is indeed negative. This means the temperature increase due to CO2 with negative feedback will be less than CO2 alone.

• Separating radiative and non-radiative feedbacks clearly shows a strongly negative feedback. This is why the earth was not much warmer when CO2 was 15x as high as today

• A key parameter in the global warming argument is mid troposphere warming. All global climate models (GCM) exhibit mid troposphere warming due to CO2, but this warming has not been observed in nature.

• Urban heat island (UHI) effects are grossly underestimated by surface measurement algorithms used in reporting global temps. Some studies say it is up to 50x underestimated (large cities are up to 10°C warmer than rural areas).

Lealy
07-25-2009, 06:52 PM
It's gonna be about 108 here today, and through next week.

I'm calling it Global Warming.:rolleyes:

Well we have had a crapy cold summer here, coldest in many years.

When will GW stop never because they will just change the name to something that cant be dis-proven like Climate Change (duh, this is what the climate does). So they will always be right regardless of what happens in real life. Nice gig if you can get it.

foxyladi
07-25-2009, 08:18 PM
it gets hot here in Summer.lol
but along about January it ain't so hot..:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Horizon
07-25-2009, 08:59 PM
it gets hot here in Summer.lol
but along about January it ain't so hot..:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Ya'll get Global Ice Age back there about January!:laughing:

Spang
07-25-2009, 10:51 PM
Watch this. (http://www.home-2009.com/us/index.html)

Suzan
07-25-2009, 11:12 PM
BINGO!


All the arguments voicing concern about global warming are based upon models that have not been verified and have known weaknesses.

• Clouds, which have a major effect upon earth temperature, are not adequately modeled.

• Climate models use a very high positive feedback for water vapor. This feedback has never been observed in nature.

• More recent studies show evidence that the feedback is indeed negative. This means the temperature increase due to CO2 with negative feedback will be less than CO2 alone.

• Separating radiative and non-radiative feedbacks clearly shows a strongly negative feedback. This is why the earth was not much warmer when CO2 was 15x as high as today

• A key parameter in the global warming argument is mid troposphere warming. All global climate models (GCM) exhibit mid troposphere warming due to CO2, but this warming has not been observed in nature.

• Urban heat island (UHI) effects are grossly underestimated by surface measurement algorithms used in reporting global temps. Some studies say it is up to 50x underestimated (large cities are up to 10°C warmer than rural areas).
Interesting. I can't say I understand it on a technical level, but I hear what you're saying about the science. However, if the science for proving GW is man-made is inexact, what about the science that disproves it?

VotingHillary
07-25-2009, 11:24 PM
Well we have had a crapy cold summer here, coldest in many years.

Same here and it is coming off one of our coldest winters in years. :(

Valin
10-16-2009, 03:42 AM
Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 Years

foxyladi
10-16-2009, 05:46 PM
don't mess around with mother nature:rotfl: