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View Full Version : (Sept 18 2009) "Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia" (Times Online UK)


BillDemo
09-17-2009, 07:26 PM
A similar topic was posted earlier, but this article here contains analysis about Obama's reasons for scrapping the plans and also how his hope to get Moscow to help with stopping Iran going nuclear has already failed.... making his scrapping of the plans completely useless. ie: He has already failed in what he hoped to achieve with this.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6839310.ece

Barack Obama took a massive foreign policy gamble yesterday when he scrapped plans for a missile defence shield in Eastern Europe — a major concession to Russia.

The decision to shelve the Bush-era plan for a “Star Wars” defence system was denounced by Republicans as appeasing Moscow and caused dismay among former Soviet satellites.

The plan involved basing US interceptor missiles in Poland and radar in the Czech Republic to protect Europe from Iranian missiles. Russia, furious at the positioning of US military hardware on its border, denounced the system as a threat to its own defences and demanded that it be scrapped.

President Obama justified the change of plan by citing new intelligence that shows Iran’s long-range missile programme to be far less advanced than previously thought. Instead of being close to developing missiles capable of hitting London, Paris and New York, Tehran’s threat came only from short and medium-term missiles, he said. As a result he proposed to protect US allies in Southern Europe and the Middle East with an existing sea-based system that requires no permanent land bases.

The move signals how crucial Mr Obama believes Russia is to his wider agenda. He desperately needs Moscow’s co-operation in confronting Iran’s nuclear ambitions — central to achieving peace in the Middle East as a whole — and in negotiating a new nuclear arms reduction treaty.

John McCain, Mr Obama’s Republican opponent in last year’s presidential race, denounced the decision as “seriously misguided”. He said: “This decision calls into question the security and diplomatic commitments the United States has made to Poland and the Czech Republic. It has the potential to undermine perceived American leadership in Eastern Europe . . . at a time when Eastern European nations are increasingly wary of renewed Russian adventurism.”

John Bolton, Mr Bush’s hardline UN ambassador, called the move “pre-emptive surrender to the Russians and the Iranians”. He said that if intelligence on Iran’s long-range missile capability was wrong then the decision would leave Europe vulnerable. “You cannot switch missile defence back on like a light switch,” he said.

Mr Obama’s decision was seen as a significant victory in Moscow. It was also interpreted as a way of strengthening the standing of President Medvedev in Russia. The White House sees Mr Medvedev as more moderate and helpful than Vladimir Putin, who has hinted of a presidential comeback.

President Medvedev, who will meet Mr Obama at the UN General Assembly in New York next week and at the G20 summit in Pittsburgh, described Mr Obama’s decision as a responsible move and suggested that it would help negotiations on a nuclear arms reduction agreement.

Any hopes that Mr Obama had had that the decision would garner Russian co-operation on Iran were quickly dashed, however. Sergei Lavrov, the Foreign Minister, said that any move to impose new sanctions on Iran would be a “serious mistake”.

Gordon Brown said that he strongly supported Mr Obama’s decision and hoped that it would help in getting an arms reduction treaty. Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the Nato Secretary-General, welcomed the decision as a step to improving relations with both Russia and Iran. Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, said that it was “a hopeful signal to overcome the difficulties with Russia concerning a common strategy for fighting the threat posed by Iran”. She added: “I hope we will now manage to speak with Iran together, and if that is not successful, to implement sanctions.”

Mr Obama’s plan calls for a phased approach to missile defence, with constantly upgraded versions of the proven Aegis/Standard SM3 interceptor.

Critics say that the new system is risky because it only intercepts missiles in the final stage of flight; the Bush-era programme would have targeted weapons much earlier.


Remember, during the 2008 campaign, the right wing was telling us that Obama would weaken US defence systems if elected?..... Remember how they told us Obama favored appeasement? .....Remember how we didn't believe them?....X_X

NativeSun
09-17-2009, 07:31 PM
Jesus Christ! X_X
What next?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6839310.ece



Remember, during the 2008 campaign, the right wing was telling us that Obama would weaken US defence systems if elected?..... Remember how they told us Obama favored appeasement? .....Remember how we didn't believe them?....X_X

What are you talking about? That's why he chose Joe Biden as his running mate. You know, the foreign policy expert.

Ikasu
09-17-2009, 07:34 PM
He's not eliminating missile defense, he's replacing the current long-range defense system with a more efficient small-to-medium range defense system. This new policy is more geared towards threats from Iran to the region. US intelligence shows that Iranian medium range missiles are developing more quickly. This is a technical response to that problem. The old system was costly and unnecessarily aggravated the Russians who we need for our interests in the middle east.

BillDemo
09-17-2009, 07:35 PM
What are you talking about? That's why he chose Joe Biden as his running mate. You know, the foreign policy expert.

Yeah LOL. The foreign policy expert who wanted to chop Iraq into 3 pieces until McCain told him that wasn't possible. That foreign policy expert. :D

foxyladi
09-17-2009, 07:38 PM
oh.my[-X[-X

Ikasu
09-17-2009, 07:38 PM
Yeah LOL. The foreign policy expert who wanted to chop Iraq into 3 pieces until McCain told him that wasn't possible. That foreign policy expert. :D

Yes, that was pretty stupid. lol

BillDemo
09-17-2009, 07:39 PM
He's not eliminating missile defense, he's replacing the current long-range defense system with a more efficient small-to-medium defense system. This new policy is more geared towards threats from Iran to the region. It was a costly system that unnecessarily aggravated the Russians who we need for our interests in the middle east.

I agree that he's not scrapping missile defence....

I disagree when u say that his alternate system is more efficient:

"Critics say that the new system is risky because it only intercepts missiles in the final stage of flight; the Bush-era programme would have targeted weapons much earlier."

This is a huge concession to the Russians, designed to get them to help us and they have already responded, making it clear that they have no intention of helping us.

In my eyes,. thats a big failure for us. And a big win for Moscow and Iran.

Ikasu
09-17-2009, 07:45 PM
I agree that he's not scrapping missile defence....

Some people think that he eliminated the program and left them to be destroyed. You know how these stories can be manipulated.

I disagree when u say that his alternate system is more efficient:

"Critics say that the new system is risky because it only intercepts missiles in the final stage of flight; the Bush-era programme would have targeted weapons much earlier."

This is a huge concession to the Russians, designed to get them to help us and they have already responded, making it clear that they have no intention of helping us.

In my eyes,. thats a big failure for us. And a big win for Moscow and Iran.

The old system was over-the-top and futuristic ("Star Wars"). The new system is more geared to immediate threats from small to medium range missiles. Russia gave their warning about Iran sanctions and a strike on their nuclear facilities before this plan was announced. So there's still plenty of room to see where we can go with Russia on this.

BillDemo
09-17-2009, 08:01 PM
Some people think that he eliminated the program and left them to be destroyed. You know how these stories can be manipulated.



The old system was over-the-top and futuristic ("Star Wars"). The new system is more geared to immediate threats from small to medium range missiles. Russia gave their warning about Iran sanctions and a strike on their nuclear facilities before this plan was announced. So there's still plenty of room to see where we can go with Russia on this.

I think you are more optimistic and I am more pessimistic about this, LOL :)

I read an article in another thread about how Poland is very angry about this move by Obama and are going to try to get the US to place more missiles in their country to protect against Russian aggression....

We seem to be trying to please Moscow and screwing over our Eastern European allies...:eek:

NativeSun
09-17-2009, 08:05 PM
I think you are more optimistic and I am more pessimistic about this, LOL :)

I read an article in another thread about how Poland is very angry about this move by Obama and are going to try to get the US to place more missiles in their country to protect against Russian aggression....

We seem to be trying to please Moscow and screwing over our Eastern European allies...:eek:

Well, the Democrats did it at the end of WWII, so what's wrong with Obama continuing the trend?

Ikasu
09-17-2009, 08:06 PM
I think you are more optimistic and I am more pessimistic about this, LOL :)

I read an article in another thread about how Poland is very angry about this move by Obama and are going to try to get the US to place more missiles in their country to protect against Russian aggression....

We seem to be trying to please Moscow and screwing over our Eastern European allies...:eek:

I'm not optimistic about the world, far from it. Gates claims that this is just a technical issue. Obviously, there's more to it than that. But you can see a shift in US foreign policy away from Cold War notions which still are the logic behind many of our decisions. People who cling to these old ideas are going to be upset about it.

Kbentleyis
09-17-2009, 08:07 PM
RETREAT!! RETREAT!! RETREAT!!

A question: What guarantee would lead us to believe this. The move signals how crucial Mr Obama believes Russia is to his wider agenda. He desperately needs Moscow’s co-operation in confronting Iran’s nuclear ambitions — central to achieving peace in the Middle East as a whole — and in negotiating a new nuclear arms reduction treaty.

Any hopes that Mr Obama had had that the decision would garner Russian co-operation on Iran were quickly dashed, however. Sergei Lavrov, the Foreign Minister, said that any move to impose new sanctions on Iran would be a “serious mistake”.
The intelligence BHO talks about in his speech today; is that the same intelligence that lead us to the war in Iraq?President Obama justified the change of plan by citing new intelligence that shows Iran’s long-range missile programme to be far less advanced than previously thought.

The Poland and the Czech Republic went out on a limb to support the USA and the missile defense. Can it be, that we've sent a message to the world that our treaties and word have no worth.

John Bolton, Mr Bush’s hardline UN ambassador, called the move “pre-emptive surrender to the Russians and the Iranians”. He said that if intelligence on Iran’s long-range missile capability was wrong then the decision would leave Europe vulnerable. “You cannot switch missile defence back on like a light switch,” he said.

tracker
09-17-2009, 08:10 PM
genericstamp!

I agree that he's not scrapping missile defence....

I disagree when u say that his alternate system is more efficient:

"Critics say that the new system is risky because it only intercepts missiles in the final stage of flight; the Bush-era programme would have targeted weapons much earlier."

This is a huge concession to the Russians, designed to get them to help us and they have already responded, making it clear that they have no intention of helping us.

In my eyes,. thats a big failure for us. And a big win for Moscow and Iran.

Eminence
09-17-2009, 09:01 PM
Russia gave their warning about Iran sanctions and a strike on their nuclear facilities before this plan was announced. So there's still plenty of room to see where we can go with Russia on this.

Russia had to have known about this for at least a few days, and yet, their foreign minister reinforced their position on not supporting sanctions toward Iran yesterday. I would venture then, that probably also extends to not supporting strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities either.

But hey, it's not like an end to nuclear proliferation has been a left position for ages. So who cares if, even with this concession, we won't get any serious help from the Russians to that end. It looks good superficially, that's all that matters.

agatha
09-17-2009, 09:16 PM
The old system was costly and unnecessarily aggravated the Russians who we need for our interests in the middle east.


What concessions did he get from Russia? I've been looking but haven't found anything...

Ikasu
09-17-2009, 09:29 PM
What concessions did he get from Russia? I've been looking but haven't found anything...

This wasn't a negotiation.

agatha
09-17-2009, 09:34 PM
This wasn't a negotiation.


Why the hell not?

mavfin
09-17-2009, 10:03 PM
Well, this just leaves it clear for Russia to pressure Eastern Europe into another Warsaw Pact.

Can't say you weren't warned. Obama's a very weak President, but I knew he would be.

He's like Chamberlain. Appease, appease, appease, for 'peace in our time'.

We all know how that turned out.

NativeSun
09-18-2009, 01:06 AM
Well, this just leaves it clear for Russia to pressure Eastern Europe into another Warsaw Pact.

Can't say you weren't warned. Obama's a very weak President, but I knew he would be.

He's like Chamberlain. Appease, appease, appease, for 'peace in our time'.

We all know how that turned out.

This could be the title of his next book The Audacity of Appeasement. And what have the Russians really helped us out on. Arming Venezuela? Helping Iran obtain medium-range missles?

VotingHillary
09-18-2009, 01:16 AM
Well, this just leaves it clear for Russia to pressure Eastern Europe into another Warsaw Pact.

Can't say you weren't warned. Obama's a very weak President, but I knew he would be.

He's like Chamberlain. Appease, appease, appease, for 'peace in our time'.

We all know how that turned out.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2341857/posts

I posted this in the other thread regarding Poland. Please note the date and read what you can of this NY Times article...and remember, this was when the NY Times was actually a real newspaper.

9/17/39...those that don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Nice timing by the administration.