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View Full Version : (9-19-09): "From Bear to Bull" (James Grant, WSJ) Bearish economist predicts "barnburner" recovery!!!


Suzan
09-19-2009, 08:22 PM
Surprisingly, the WSJ's "Weekend Journal" is full of good news, starting with James Grant's prediction of a "zippy" recovery for the Great Recession, based on the lessons of the past.


As if they really knew, leading economists predict that recovery from our Great Recession will be plodding, gray and jobless. But they don't know, and can't. The future is unfathomable.

Not famously a glass half-full kind of fellow, I am about to propose that the recovery will be a bit of a barn burner. Not that I can really know, either, the future being what it is. However, though I can't predict, I can guess. No, not "guess." Let us say infer.

The very best investors don't even try to forecast the future. Rather, they seize such opportunities as the present affords them. Henry Singleton, chief executive officer of Teledyne Inc. from the 1960s through the 1980s, was one of these enlightened opportunists. The best plan, he believed, was no plan. Better to approach an uncertain world with an open mind. "I know a lot of people have very strong and definite plans that they've worked out on all kinds of things," Singleton once remarked at a Teledyne annual meeting, "but we're subject to a tremendous number of outside influences and the vast majority of them cannot be predicted. So my idea is to stay flexible." Then how many influences, outside and inside, must bear on the U.S. economy?

Though we can't see into the future, we can observe how people are preparing to meet it. Depleted inventories, bloated jobless rolls and rock-bottom interest rates suggest that people are preparing for to meet it from the inside of a bomb shelter.

The Great Recession destroyed confidence as much as it did jobs and wealth. Here was a slump out of central casting. From the peak, inflation-adjusted gross domestic product has fallen by 3.9%. The meek and mild downturns of 1990-91 and 2001 (each, coincidentally, just eight months long, hardly worth the bother), brought losses to the real GDP of just 1.4% and 0.3%, respectively. The recession that sunk its hooks into the U.S. economy in the fourth quarter of 2007 has set unwanted records in such vital statistical categories as manufacturing and trade inventories (the steepest decline since 1949), capacity utilization (lowest since at least 1967) and industrial production (sharpest fall since 1946).

It isn't just every postwar disturbance that sends Citigroup Inc. (founded in 1812) into the arms of the state or has General Electric Co. (triple-A rated from 1956 to just this past March) borrowing under the wing of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. Neither does every recession feature zero percent Treasury bill yields, a coast-to-coast bear market in residential real estate or a Federal Reserve balance sheet beginning to resemble that of the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe. Yet these things have come to pass.

Americans are blessedly out of practice at bearing up under economic adversity. Individuals take their knocks, always, as do companies and communities. But it has been a generation since a business cycle downturn exacted the collective pain that this one has done. Knocked for a loop, we forget a truism. With regard to the recession that precedes the recovery, worse is subsequently better. The deeper the slump, the zippier the recovery. To quote a dissenter from the forecasting consensus, Michael T. Darda, chief economist of MKM Partners, Greenwich, Conn.: "[T]he most important determinant of the strength of an economy recovery is the depth of the downturn that preceded it. There are no exceptions to this rule, including the 1929-1939 period."

More:

To the English economist Arthur C. Pigou is credited a bon mot that exactly frames the issue. "The error of optimism dies in the crisis, but in dying it gives birth to an error of pessimism. This new error is born not an infant, but a giant." So it is today. Paul A. Volcker, Warren Buffett, Ben S. Bernanke and economists too numerous to mention are on record talking down the recovery before it fairly gets started. They collectively paint the picture of an economy that got drunk, fell down a flight of stairs, broke a leg and deserves to be lying flat on its back in the hospital contemplating the wages of sin. Among economists polled by Bloomberg News, the median 2010 GDP forecast is for 2.4% growth. It would be a unusually flat rebound from a full-bodied downturn.

And much more at the link:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574420811475582956.html#

Suzan
09-19-2009, 09:23 PM
Has anyone else noticed a pattern in this forum? No one ever responds to good economic news. Well, rarely, probably rarely is more accurate. And the responses are almost universally downbeat.

Now, I'm curious. Would it be good or bad if things turned around quickly?

I'm starting to think ideology trumps even the pocketbook. Is this true? Some of the conservatives in my family have a hard time giving Bill Clinton ANY credit at all for the prosperity of his two terms, and certainly he deserves some.

Ikasu
09-19-2009, 09:43 PM
Economic threads generally do not receive many responses. It's hard to tell what will happen. It will take time for the jobs to pick up.

Suzan
09-19-2009, 09:55 PM
So you think ideology isn't a factor and this has nothing to do with the White House? There's just little interest in the economy?

Actually, it just occurred to me that if the author is right about the barnburner recovery, it could give Obama a second term.

LOL, now I'm not as excited.

Ikasu
09-19-2009, 10:06 PM
So you think ideology isn't a factor and this has nothing to do with the White House? There's just little interest in the economy?

Actually, it just occurred to me that if the author is right about the barnburner recovery, it could give Obama a second term.

LOL, now I'm not as excited.

Most people find economics boring. It's not an exciting topic like foreign policy or the latest drama on the Hill.

And I'm certain Obama will be a two-term president. The economy will be okay by election time.

sojourner
09-19-2009, 10:29 PM
Has anyone else noticed a pattern in this forum? No one ever responds to good economic news. Well, rarely, probably rarely is more accurate. And the responses are almost universally downbeat.

Now, I'm curious. Would it be good or bad if things turned around quickly?

I'm starting to think ideology trumps even the pocketbook. Is this true? Some of the conservatives in my family have a hard time giving Bill Clinton ANY credit at all for the prosperity of his two terms, and certainly he deserves some.

I don't remember seeing any good economic news since I joined the forum. If the economy recovered in the next 6-12 months to where it was 2-3 years ago I would be ecstatic (I know I just said on another thread that I didn't use code, but when I say economy what I really mean is my stock portfolio/retirement account :) ).

I don't get too excited when some economist makes a prediction. It is a tricky business with lots of variable, not the least of which are people that don't always act as they are supposed to. you could probably ask for opinions on this issue of 10 economists and get 12 answers.

Suzan
09-20-2009, 01:17 AM
[QUOTE=sojourner;622005]I don't remember seeing any good economic news since I joined the forum. If the economy recovered in the next 6-12 months to where it was 2-3 years ago I would be ecstatic (I know I just said on another thread that I didn't use code, but when I say economy what I really mean is my stock portfolio/retirement account :) ).

I've been posting it when I find it--and the bad stuff as well. This is the most optimistic by far, but there's rarely much reaction. It makes you wonder if it really is the "economy, stupid" ... I guess maybe it's only the economy when the economy is doing badly.

I don't get too excited when some economist makes a prediction. It is a tricky business with lots of variable, not the least of which are people that don't always act as they are supposed to. you could probably ask for opinions on this issue of 10 economists and get 12 answers.

LOL. Yeah, and they would all make your head ache. But I thought this article was pretty interesting because he's basing his prediction on past recoveries.

Ron4Hill
09-20-2009, 02:41 AM
Glad you posted this, Susan. I'm happy to hear about any economic forecasts, good or bad. Since this "barnburner" prediction is based on historical evidence, let's take a little look at history.

The Nasdaq in March, 2000, hit 5000. Here it is 9.5 years later and it's 2133 and the highest point in the intervening years was about 2810 on Oct 29, 2007. The 2001 recession didn't see any recovery until 2003 and it was considered a jobless recovery. That's a new phenomenon based on some fundamental changes in the economy brought about by globalization which didn't get going in earnest until Clinton's second term. Any comparison with a time before that wouldn't make sense.

Many of the jobs lost this recession will never come back. Too many companies going out of business. The commercial real estate bubble hasn't even popped yet but it may be about to.

Facing the next real-estate collapse (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/facing_the_next_real_estate_collapse_5NbxrlBoP3xbt OHa9TGmTO)

foxyladi
09-20-2009, 12:04 PM
waiting for the next shoe to drop

hobbitt
09-20-2009, 12:34 PM
Has anyone else noticed a pattern in this forum? No one ever responds to good economic news. Well, rarely, probably rarely is more accurate. And the responses are almost universally downbeat.

.

If economists were all so damned smart and prescient, they'd be living a life of luxury in the south of France.

And downbeat news: Goodwill just opened another retail location in King County; shoppers lined up hours before the store opened. And food banks around here are mostly depleted and begging for contributions. And the unemployment rate just reached double-digits.

sojourner
09-20-2009, 12:46 PM
[quote]
LOL. Yeah, and they would all make your head ache. But I thought this article was pretty interesting because he's basing his prediction on past recoveries.

But his predictions are like saying you will have a faster overall recovery if you break multiple bones and are put in an ICU than if you break just one bone in your arm and are sent home in a cast. I guess we should hope that the recession gets worse because then it will get better faster.

Folamix
09-20-2009, 04:00 PM
Economic threads generally do not receive many responses. It's hard to tell what will happen. It will take time for the jobs to pick up.

From what I see, job recovery is not happening. That is where the impact is felt by the working class American.

foxyladi
09-20-2009, 05:20 PM
there is no new jobs in my town.in fact a lot are closing down or moving away

mavfin
09-20-2009, 08:27 PM
I've seen a lot of predictions in the past month, and it's been everything from gloom and doom to wonderful.

This leads me to believe that no one really knows what's going on at the moment.

sojourner
09-20-2009, 08:35 PM
there is no new jobs in my town.in fact a lot are closing down or moving away

Same here. unemployment is at 12%. I went down to my favorite clothing store the other day and found that they had gone out of business.

Suzan
09-20-2009, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by sojourner
But his predictions are like saying you will have a faster overall recovery if you break multiple bones and are put in an ICU than if you break just one bone in your arm and are sent home in a cast. I guess we should hope that the recession gets worse because then it will get better faster.

No, they're not. He's saying that historically the steepest downturns had the quickest recoveries. "Zippy" was the word he used. Therefore, this being a steep downturn, we should be able to look forward to a zippy recovery, which in fact, has already started ... if I haven't tempted fate simply by mentioning it. :eek:

sojourner
09-20-2009, 11:18 PM
No, they're not. He's saying that historically the steepest downturns had the quickest recoveries. "Zippy" was the word he used. Therefore, this being a steep downturn, we should be able to look forward to a zippy recovery, which in fact, has already started ... if I haven't tempted fate simply by mentioning it. :eek:

If you believe we have bottomed out. Other economists warn of double-dip recession. William White, the highly-respected former chief economist at the Bank for International Settlements, also warned that government actions to help the economy in the short run may be sowing the seeds for future crises, “The only thing that would really surprise me is a rapid and sustainable recovery from the position we’re in.”

PowerPro
09-20-2009, 11:46 PM
If you believe we have bottomed out. Other economists warn of double-dip recession. William White, the highly-respected former chief economist at the Bank for International Settlements, also warned that government actions to help the economy in the short run may be sowing the seeds for future crises, “The only thing that would really surprise me is a rapid and sustainable recovery from the position we’re in.”

That's what I've seen too.

Furthermore, I've seen multiple sources determine that through it all, we will continue to lose jobs...so a jobless recovery that leads into a double dip recession.