By Rule Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, And Nevada Should Be Sanctioned

[supra5677]

Rules state that primary or caucus that goes early will receive a penalty of 50% of the delegates removed. IT DOES NOT SAY ALL DELEGATES! Also any candidate who campaigns in the state shall be penalized.. Obama ran commercials in the state... Ok I'll get this together and send it to the main offices in Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Indiana...

Brian:)

[RachachaSharon]

Rules state that primary or caucus that goes early will receive a penalty of 50% of the delegates removed. IT DOES NOT SAY ALL DELEGATES! Also any candidate who campaigns in the state shall be penalized.. Obama ran commercials in the state... Ok I'll get this together and send it to the main offices in Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Indiana...

Brian:)

Fantastic find! You might want to see if there has been an amendment to the rules changing this one.

[Sandy in PA]

Go Brian!!!!

[ZY123]

I think this is definitely something....get the message out there.

[Jayling]

Read further, they covered their asses well. Scroll down a couple pages to C.5:

Nothing in the preceding subsections of this rule shall be construed to prevent the
DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing additional sanctions,
including, without limitation, those specified in subsection (6) of this section

Made by lawyers for lawyers it seems.

[WV4Hillary]

I would be surprised if Hillary's campaign didn't know about this already. Don't contact any media about it or anything..because Hillary may be trying to barter for 100% delegates, and will pull out this rule only if it gets down to the point where they are absolutely not going to seat the delegates.

[RayinAR]

Can we get that to the public. Surely Hillary knows of this rule and will fight for it later. Do you think?

[Jayling]

Once again :)

Read further, they covered their asses well. Scroll down a couple pages to C.5:

Nothing in the preceding subsections of this rule shall be construed to prevent the
DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing additional sanctions,
including, without limitation, those specified in subsection (6) of this section

Made by lawyers for lawyers it seems.

[SunnyInCal]

Can I get a link??

Also, wasn't there something about one or two other states who also moved up but were NOT penalized?

[HRH Jorge]

I concur- I would be surprised if they're weren't a bevy of lawyers for the Clintons going over every line. If there were something it would have come out.

It looks pretty cut and dry- the part Jayling quoted
"Nothing in the preceding subsections of this rule shall be construed to prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing additional sanctions, including, without limitation, those specified in subsection (6) of this section"

Basically allows the decision the bylaws committee made last year to supercede the DNC regular rules.
HRH

[xfiles]

Shows you how much Dean knows. He said this morning NEITHER candidate violated the rules. Even to this day, he doesn't know Obama ran commercials there!

No wonder things are so messed up! Idiot!

Rules state that primary or caucus that goes early will receive a penalty of 50% of the delegates removed. IT DOES NOT SAY ALL DELEGATES! Also any candidate who campaigns in the state shall be penalized.. Obama ran commercials in the state... Ok I'll get this together and send it to the main offices in Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Indiana...

Brian:)

[supra5677]

I think Lou Dobbs would eat this up though.. its worth a try...

[LadyLuck]

Floridas democratic party already brought that up to no avail. They made peace with the DNC and neither are looking back anymore. :(

[Jayling]

Can I get a link??

Also, wasn't there something about one or two other states who also moved up but were NOT penalized?
Delegate Selection Rules (http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/de68e7b6dfa0743217_hwm6bhyc4.pdf)

Yes. Go down to 11.A. for the Timing of the Delegate Process. Three States defied the rules and went early:

Iowa - can't be held earlier than January 14th -- they changed to January 3
New Hampshire -- can't be held earlier than January 22 -- they changed to January 8
South Carolina -- can't be held earlier than January 29 -- they changed to January 26

No sanctions -- no 50% reduction -- nothing but blessings.

[Patsy]

I say go for it. No contract is ever binding, as we all know....

[LadyLuck]

The deal is the delegates will be seated in aug. and they have hotel rooms now.

[Wales for Hillary]

Found this onDU of all places....I havent seen it mentioned on here
---------------------------------------------------------------------

TALLAHASSEE, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Warning that ignoring the almost 2 million Democratic votes cast in the January presidential primary risks creating a "political tragedy," State Senator Ted Deutch (D-Boca Raton) today called on Democratic National Committee Chair Howard Dean to exercise his authority, count Florida's ballots in the national vote total, and seat the Florida delegation.

"When dozens of union members picket the DNC Headquarters...to demand a voice for millions of Democrats...the surreal dispute between the DNC and Democrats in Florida...risks becoming a political tragedy," Deutch wrote in a letter to the controversial chairman.

"For us to be successful in November, Florida Democrats must be convinced that our party and our nominee are committed to giving Florida Democrats a place in the process...to date DNC voices on this issue, including your own, have been too ambivalent about the importance of our vote."

The solution, wrote Deutch, is in plain sight.

“I urge you to pursue a solution to the Florida morass that is easy, completely consistent with DNC Rules, yet still gives our residents a voice: announce that our votes count, seat the entire Florida Delegation, but cut its weight by 50%. This is not a new proposal; it is an obvious resolution that has been overlooked or ignored."

The issue of counting Florida's Democratic votes, still unresolved, flared up again following this week's union picket at the DNC headquarters, and a statement made recently by Dean that “this popular vote argument is all very interesting but that’s not what elects the president.”

The dismissal of Florida’s primary votes “struck a raw nerve with me and with many Floridians,” wrote Deutch. “Given what happened here in 2000, many of us are absolutely shocked that Florida voters are being disenfranchised again...and this time by our own party! ...assurances and delays are unacceptable. More than 1.7 million Florida Democrats stood in line on January 29th to cast their vote, and it is critical to know that their votes matter and will be counted."

The issue of the hefty sanctions imposed against Florida by the DNC began shortly after the Republican-lead legislature moved to roll back its primary date to January 29th, violating the national party's primary date rules. Although the DNC's own rules dictate that such violations will be punishable by stripping half of a state's delegates, the Chairman backed a move to strip them all.

If the state violated the DNC's rules, so too did the DNC, argued Deutch. To solve the impasse, Deutch implored Dean to invoke the rules again to save the party, and ultimately, the presidential election.

"I acknowledge that the Rules were technically violated. So let's use the Rules to get us out of this mess."

According to the Boca Raton Democrat, to resolve the dispute over Florida, if Dean is going to impose the sanctions for an early election, he first needs to acknowledge that an election was held. "If an election was held and people voted, and if the penalty is based upon the outcome of that election, then every one of the votes must count."

Additionally, once again relying on the rules, once the votes are counted, then there should be only a 50 percent reduction in the number of delegates, Deutch wrote. "The entire delegation should be seated and weighted at 50 percent."

"This solution is based on the Rules; it is simple, fair to our presidential candidates and fair to our activists. The DNC may diminish our votes at the Convention, but it cannot quiet our voices."

[RachachaSharon]

I've been in law for over 30 years. When you do research, you have to look for the most recent changes. Even though these bozos haven't practiced law - if they ever did - in years, they know enough to cover their collective asses.

[supra5677]

Burden of proof is on clamaints in credentials committee. Obama did run commercials in Florida by rule he gets no delegates. Why did run commercials if it didn't count? Also other states were allowed to move up without penalty, dnc is not consistent with intent of rules.. I'll get this together and see what people think, Dobbs, Fox News, and Campaign.

I could see winning this in the Supreme Court.. The conservative judges are "states rights judges"

Brian

[endodoc79]

I still think that the MSM needs to report on the 3 states Iowa, NH and SC that moved up without penalty in contrast to FL & MI. I am especially peturbed by SC move up because there was no historic or structural reason for doing so. I think Hillary hinted at her strategy which is to win the popular certified vote. She has mentioned that the vote in FL & MI has been certified by their secretaries of state, so they are official votes (I am not a lawyer). Regardless of what Dean says, the people voted in a legal election, if the vote is certified and 2.5 million Americans came out and the majority voted for Hillary - it is what it is. As Jayling has been keeping the numbers the vote is expected to go positive for Hillary with the vote in PA on Apr 22. That is why our efforts calling and canvassing are so important, because she really needs as many votes as possible in the overall popular vote total.

[SunnyInCal]

Delegate Selection Rules (http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/de68e7b6dfa0743217_hwm6bhyc4.pdf)

Yes. Go down to 11.A. for the Timing of the Delegate Process. Three States defied the rules and went early:

Iowa - can't be held earlier than January 14th -- they changed to January 3
New Hampshire -- can't be held earlier than January 22 -- they changed to January 8
South Carolina -- can't be held earlier than January 29 -- they changed to January 26

No sanctions -- no 50% reduction -- nothing but blessings.

Ok.. so how did the DNC excuse not punishing them but punishing FL and MI to the extreme??

Sorry, I'm still learning here. And with everything I learn I get more frustrated.

[SunnyInCal]

I still think that the MSM needs to report on the 3 states Iowa, NH and SC that moved up without penalty in contrast to FL & MI. I am especially peturbed by SC move up because there was no historic or structural reason for doing so. I think Hillary hinted at her strategy which is to win the popular certified vote. She has mentioned that the vote in FL & MI has been certified by their secretaries of state, so they are official votes (I am not a lawyer). Regardless of what Dean says, the people voted in a legal election, if the vote is certified and 2.5 million Americans came out and the majority voted for Hillary - it is what it is. As Jayling has been keeping the numbers the vote is expected to go positive for Hillary with the vote in PA on Apr 22. That is why our efforts calling and canvassing are so important, because she really needs as many votes as possible in the overall popular vote total.

Except someone here posted somewhere that in MI, a court ruled the election unconstitutional.

Ok, I'm going to just start calling the elections offices in these states and the DNC to start getting answers, I'll call my local rep if I have to, but emailing doesn't really seem to be getting us any real answers.

[LadyLuck]

Burden of proof is on clamaints in credentials committee. Obama did run commercials in Florida by rule he gets no delegates. Why did run commercials if it didn't count? Also other states were allowed to move up without penalty, dnc is not consistent with intent of rules.. I'll get this together and see what people think, Dobbs, Fox News, and Campaign.

I could see winning this in the Supreme Court.. The conservative judges are "states rights judges"

Brian

And he shipped his signs and other junk down here too.

[Jayling]

Ok.. so how did the DNC excuse not punishing them but punishing FL and MI to the extreme??

Sorry, I'm still learning here. And with everything I learn I get more frustrated.
ah, that's the point, there isn't any good explanation for why the favored ones received the nod. Even to this date, I still can't find any official documentation that the DNC sent to these 3 States allowing them to change their dates from the rules. I've checked the DNC site and each individual State's Dem Party website -- I just can't find any official document about it.

[Annie]

Rules state that primary or caucus that goes early will receive a penalty of 50% of the delegates removed. IT DOES NOT SAY ALL DELEGATES! Also any candidate who campaigns in the state shall be penalized.. Obama ran commercials in the state... Ok I'll get this together and send it to the main offices in Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Indiana...

Brian:)


Good going! :D

[skc1976]

Even if they want to use that part to get out of it and penalize FL and MI, then they need to do it to IA, NH, and SC. Oh, WAIT...Obama won two of those three. Can't do that!

But, what does apply is that if he ran commercials there, then he should be penalized. There would be records of it with the television stations. They have to report where the money comes from. :D

[CGP]

Well to me it seems they expected Obama to win Iowa, New Hampshire & South Carolina - hence no sanction. And they expected Hillary to win Michigan & Florida - hence the sanctions!

Seems plausible to me. Why else would there be a double standard for 5 states that all broke the same rule?

[Annie]

Shows you how much Dean knows. He said this morning NEITHER candidate violated the rules. Even to this day, he doesn't know Obama ran commercials there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by supra5677
Rules state that primary or caucus that goes early will receive a penalty of 50% of the delegates removed. IT DOES NOT SAY ALL DELEGATES! Also any candidate who campaigns in the state shall be penalized.. Obama ran commercials in the state... Ok I'll get this together and send it to the main offices in Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Indiana...

Brian
No wonder things are so messed up! Idiot!


Surely Dean knows Barak had commercials running there and was also at a fund raiser in Florida during the campaign.... Need Floridians to back all of this up.

[samkm]

If you can, pls call Oregon. Callers needed now.

[Hoosier]

Delegate Selection Rules (http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/de68e7b6dfa0743217_hwm6bhyc4.pdf)

Yes. Go down to 11.A. for the Timing of the Delegate Process. Three States defied the rules and went early:

Iowa - can't be held earlier than January 14th -- they changed to January 3
New Hampshire -- can't be held earlier than January 22 -- they changed to January 8
South Carolina -- can't be held earlier than January 29 -- they changed to January 26

No sanctions -- no 50% reduction -- nothing but blessings.

I think this is more important then what was mentioned earlier. This information needs to get to the protesters in Fl and MI and the media.

[Annie]

I still think that the MSM needs to report on the 3 states Iowa, NH and SC that moved up without penalty in contrast to FL & MI. I am especially peturbed by SC move up because there was no historic or structural reason for doing so. I think Hillary hinted at her strategy which is to win the popular certified vote. She has mentioned that the vote in FL & MI has been certified by their secretaries of state, so they are official votes (I am not a lawyer). Regardless of what Dean says, the people voted in a legal election, if the vote is certified and 2.5 million Americans came out and the majority voted for Hillary - it is what it is. As Jayling has been keeping the numbers the vote is expected to go positive for Hillary with the vote in PA on Apr 22. That is why our efforts calling and canvassing are so important, because she really needs as many votes as possible in the overall popular vote total.

I know Hill won New Hampshire.... Who won Iowa and and S Carolina - and would that make a diff in delegates and popular votes if they were given the same punishment as Florida and Michigan.... Just asking - anybody?:confused:

[SunnyInCal]

So here's the deal

Obama claims that he didn't put ads in FL it was just overflow from a station in a close state. Ok, sure, fine.. if they can give you a pass on Rev Wright, Ayers etc, you get a pass on this.

But I also heard on this board somewhere that Obama supporters were telling people in MI to vote "Other" or whatever the other was instead of Hillary. This too is campaigning if it's true.

[DameLiz]

Were they not fighting to count Florida in the courts? Does anyone know the outcome?

[suerw]

Once again :)

Read further, they covered their asses well. Scroll down a couple pages to C.5:

Made by lawyers for lawyers it seems.

I didn't jump on this until reading further posts and finding the clarification. If the 50% rule were still in effect, I just felt sure that Hillary's campaign would have invoked it a long time ago.
Thanks for posting the clarification, Jayling.

[lynfreedom]

Were they not fighting to count Florida in the courts? Does anyone know the outcome?


It was dismissed once. however, it is back on as of April 10 article...new reason that might win.

TALLAHASSSEE, Florida -- A Hillsborough County Democratic Party activist renewed his federal lawsuit seeking to seat the Florida delegation at his party's national nominating convention today, with a new argument.

Victor DiMaio of Tampa said it's discriminatory for the Democratic National Committee to let South Carolina and Nevada hold a primary and caucus before Feb. 5, to test the appeal of presidential candidates to black and Hispanic voters, while penalizing Florida for voting in January.

DiMaio last year filed a suit contending that his voting rights were violated because of the DNC action, but his case was dismissed.

An Atlanta appeals court late last month gave him clearance to re-file the case, and he did so today with new allegations. The Florida Democratic Party said it had not yet seen the new complaint.

DiMaio, a political consultant who is finance director of the Hillsborough Democratic Party, said the DNC accepted $15 million from the federal government to arrange its national convention. Therefore, he said, the party is forbidden to discriminate on the basis of race.

In an unsuccessful suit brought by U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and Democratic members of Congress, DiMaio said, the national party admitted that its reasons for allowing South Carolina and Nevada to vote early was that Nevada has a large Hispanic population and 55 percent of South Carolina Democrats are black. DiMaio said it might be good to make candidates prove their appeal to different ethnic groups, after the caucus and primary in heavily white Iowa and New Hampshire, but that accepting federal money means the party can't make decisions based on race.

If South Carolina and Nevada had been chosen for geographic reasons, rather than race considerations, it might be different, DiMaio said.

"I think we have a better chance in federal court with this case," he said after filing the suit in Tampa. "The current Supreme Court is very conservative and it has held distinctions based on race to a very high level of scrutiny."

The DNC stripped Florida and Michigan of all convention delegate votes for violating the Feb. 5 rule, which permitted only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada to vote in January. Both Florida and Michigan have rejected "do-over" primaries, but both state parties are working with the DNC and the two remaining Democratic presidential candidates for a compromise to get their delegates seated at the national convention in Denver.



Bill Cotterell, Florida Capital Bureau http://www.tampabays10.com/printfullstory.aspx?storyid=78020

[supra5677]

Ok folks did some more digging on the rules: ... no primaries may be held prior to the first Tuesday in February or after the second Tuesday or after the second Tuesday in June in the calendar year of the national convention. Provided, however, that the Iowa precincts caucuses may be held no earlier than 22 days before the first tuesday in February; that the Nevada first tier caucuses may be held no earlier than 17 days before the first tuesday in February; that the New Hamphire primary may be held no earlier than 14 days before the first tuesday in February; and the South Carolina primary may be held no earlier than 7 days before the first Tuesday in February.... in no instant may a state...move out of compliance with the provisions of this rule..

As I checked the acutual dates of the primaries and compared them to the rules, Iowa went 33 days early, New Hampshire went 28 days early, and South Carolina went 10 days early. Where are the sanctions? If I were Hillary (if I'm reading this correctly) I would ask for sanctions on ALL states that violated the rules.. I haven't even check Nevada yet. When I finish this I'll send this to the campaign. Horrible situation.

[Christines]

Thank you for doing this research. This shouldn't be ignored. It should also be sent to the DNC, Dean, and the media.

[Jayling]

/mod hat on

merged similar topic threads...

[RayinAR]

/mod hat on

merged similar topic threads...

Jayling, Do you really have a hat that says mod on it? LOL

[Charlie Brown]

Dean's ego at work.

He could have saved so much grief if he had gone the half delegate route from the start.

this is a point that needs to be expressed while calling the DNC office....

877-336-7200.......call today!!!!!

[Jayling]

Jayling, Do you really have a hat that says mod on it? LOL
yeah, need to find a picture of it! LOL

Here we go!
http://www.diversityj.com/images/ModHat.jpg

[RayinAR]

yeah, need to find a picture of it! LOL

Then you could use that as your avatar. That would be cool.

[supra5677]

BY RULE 11 SECTION A OF DNC RULES:

Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada ALL held their primaries and caucuses before the DNC allotted window. By rule these states should have half or all of their respective delegates stripped in similar fashion to Michigan and Florida.. any lawyers or law students in here?..

[floorrunner]

They were granted waivers for this, what were their reasons and why were the same waivers not granted for Michigan and Florida? This is a good question to ask if we find a good lawyer. Also tecnically Obama did campaign in Florida. Somewhere in the rules it says that using electronic media to advertise is considered campaigning.

[Jayling]

And here it is...
http://www.diversityj.com/images/ModHat.jpg
merging yet again the similar topics into this thread...

[Annie]

Rules state that primary or caucus that goes early will receive a penalty of 50% of the delegates removed. IT DOES NOT SAY ALL DELEGATES! Also any candidate who campaigns in the state shall be penalized.. Obama ran commercials in the state... Ok I'll get this together and send it to the main offices in Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Indiana...

Brian:)


Interesting - hope it works. Just for info what difference would that make in the delegate counts if you are correct?

[supra5677]

Just received an email from Jeffrey Toobin. He is the CNN senior legal analyst. He hasn't looked at the rules yet, but he seems to at least at first glance be chewing on it. I also contacted the law firm in Florida who is working on the case.. So I'm still working on it..

To be brief: Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, and South Carolina were all given specific window to hold their primaries and caucuses. They all broke these windows and received "waivers" from the party. The question is why were the rules strictly enforced on Michigan and Florida and not the previous 4 states. Their might be a 14th Amendment violation here we shall see...

[Annie]

Just received an email from Jeffrey Toobin. He is the CNN senior legal analyst. He hasn't looked at the rules yet, but he seems to at least at first glance be chewing on it. I also contacted the law firm in Florida who is working on the case.. So I'm still working on it..

To be brief: Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, and South Carolina were all given specific window to hold their primaries and caucuses. They all broke these windows and received "waivers" from the party. The question is why were the rules strictly enforced on Michigan and Florida and not the previous 4 states. Their might be a 14th Amendment violation here we shall see...


If you are in communication with him why not send him the information regarding BO's tax - in Murray's other thread
http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=7337

[Wyoming Dem]

Way to go Supra! I too feel that the whole thing makes the Democratic Primary invalid. When "rules" even those made up on the sly, are not applied equally then nothing and everything becomes invalid and contestable. I smell class action suit! Chance for a Lawyer to garner some great press!

[Sandy in PA]

Go supra! That is great!

The good thing about these "legal analysts" on the networks is that they do risk disbarment so tend to be a little more honest....

[Jayling]

http://www.diversityj.com/images/ModHat.jpg
merged yet again.

Supra, we truly appreciate everything you're trying to do. Please help us here and keep all this information in the same thread instead of creating new one after another. They get lost in the vast sea here and it's hard for folks to follow along that may have missed (easily) something sent earlier.

Thanks.

Jayling

[Mrsawd]

The Name You May Go On From Now On Out Here May Be Super One !

[Annie]

http://www.diversityj.com/images/ModHat.jpg
merged yet again.

Supra, we truly appreciate everything you're trying to do. Please help us here and keep all this information in the same thread instead of creating new one after another. They get lost in the vast sea here and it's hard for folks to follow along that may have missed (easily) something sent earlier.

Thanks.

Jayling

Should it be stickied? Seems to be important enough and to keep it all in one place. Still wondering if it makes a good difference for Hillary if all this comes to pass.:confused:

[supra5677]

Howard Dean has been throwing the rule book at Michigan and Florida for months, only to change the rules for different states. He enfranchised some states and disenfranchised others. I think a conservative judge would find this problematic. Florida didn't cut in front of these other states, so I don't see the harm in them voting on January 29th. But sadly their is a racial overtone to all of this. Because Nevada and South Carolina have a large Latino and Black population they wanted the campaign to take on a more diverse tilt. I don't see any thing wrong with that, but last time I checked Florida was a diverse state as well. I just do legal research for fun and am pretty good at it, but then again I'm not in the DNC...

[Morgan]

I hope they can let Florida vote.