A dialogue I had with my [Obama-ite] daughter

[SoCal4Hillary]

My memory is blurring this board, the HC blogs, and my own blog, so I can't recall right now if I've mentioned my daughter and her husband on this board. If not, the very brief version is that they're supporting Oblahma. :( A few days ago, a member (who I also "knew" on HC) sent me a poem specifically for my daughter; I'll paste it in at the end of this post for those interested in reading it; it's about sexism and I think it's very powerful, although somewhat dated.

Anyway, I did send the poem to my daughter, and in the e-mail I simply said that someone I know from some forums sent it to me with her in mind, and to let her husband read it, too, if she wanted. Well, here's the e-mail I received back from her (I have her permission to post it):
I see where you're going with this ;)

I have to say though, I don't think that just because Hillary is a woman, I should vote for her. I don't like her negative tone during this campaign, I don't like how she is talking down to all of the young people and first time voters who feel invigorated and excited about politics. When I could first vote, I remember distinctly feeling like my vote didn't matter. My generation was jaded coming out of the gates. This generation of young voters are motivated and feel like they are part of something, and I guarantee that is not Hillary's doing. If anything, she is alienating them by mocking Obama's influence on them.

It's exciting to see a woman run for president but that doesn't mean I should vote for her. And I don't buy the whole "lifetime of experience" argument either. FDR didn't have a lifetime of experience when he crafted the new deal and brought America out of the depression. JFK didn't have a lifetime of experience. Sometimes what's more important is that America as a whole can rally behind someone and their vision.
I'll admit that I was very disappointed with her reaction, and even more disappointed that she has so wholly bought into the Obama nonsense. I'm finding it hard to believe that a female child I gave birth to could buy into his crap hook, line, and sinker. And she sounds JUST LIKE the Obama trolls who posted on HC! Note how she mentions Obama's "vision"--yet doesn't specify exactly WHAT that vision is. Isn't that typical of all Obama supporters you know or have spoken to? So this is what I sent back to her:
That's where you're wrong. "America as a whole" definitely WILL NOT rally around the underqualified, wishy-washy, accomplishment-devoid Obama. I signed a petition today pledging to vote for McCain if it's a choice between the two, and plenty of others had already signed--and it was brand new. I absolutely will NEVER vote for Obama. As for voting for Clinton BECAUSE she's a woman...that's ridiculous. I think people should support her because she is, in fact, the better choice. And it's very sad to see what us older folks remember from years gone by, i.e., the LESS qualified younger male being promoted over the MORE qualified older female. It sucks. I challenge you to name ANYTHING of substance that Obama has done to warrant the admiration he's currently receiving. Go ahead...I'll wait!That was a couple days ago and I'm still waiting...

Any thoughts? Any ideas how I might be able to knock...er...talk some sense into this [adult] kid of mine? :eek:

Here's the poem I mentioned, as it was sent to me:

privilege
a poem for men *AND young women* who don't understand what we mean when
we say they have it

D.A. Clarke

reprinted from Banshee, Peregrine Press
Copyright (c) 1981 D. A. Clarke. All Rights Reserved

privilege is simple:
going for a pleasant stroll after dark,
not checking the back of your car as you get in, sleeping soundly,
speaking without interruption, and not remembering
dreams of rape, that follow you all day, that woke you crying, and
privilege
is not seeing your stripped, humiliated body
plastered in celebration across every magazine rack, privilege
is going to the movies and not seeing yourself
terrorized, defamed, battered, butchered
seeing something else

privilege is
riding your bicycle across town without being screamed at or
run off the road, not needing an abortion, taking off your shirt
on a hot day, in a crowd, not wishing you could type better
just in case, not shaving your legs, having a decent job and
expecting to keep it, not feeling the boss's hand up your crotch,
dozing off on late-night busses, privilege
is being the hero in the TV show not the dumb broad,
living where your genitals are totemized not denied,
knowing your doctor won't rape you

privilege is being
smiled at all day by nice helpful women, it is
the way you pass judgment on their appearance with magisterial authority,
the way you face a judge of your own sex in court and
are over-represented in Congress and are not strip searched for a
traffic ticket
or used as a dart board by your friendly mechanic, privilege
is seeing your bearded face reflected through the history texts
not only of your high school days but all your life, not being
relegated to a paragraph
every other chapter, the way you occupy
entire volumes of poetry and more than your share of the couch unchallenged,
it is your mouthing smug, atrocious insults at women
who blink and change the subject -- politely -- privilege
is how seldom the rapist's name appears in the papers
and the way you smirk over your PLAYBOY

it's simple really, privilege
means someone else's pain, your wealth
is my terror, your uniform
is a woman raped to death here, or in Cambodia or wherever
wherever your obscene privilege
writes your name in my blood, it's that simple,
you've always had it, that's why it doesn't
seem to make you sick to your stomach,
you have it, we pay for it, now
do you understand?

[JamieKuuipo]

WOW, this is a great poem a bit heavy.

I have a daugter like that too but she will fall for hillary when she know
the truth about obamba

[bernie gagliano]

Mom, your daughter needs an intervention.

Hillary has ignited the rallies with her words for young people. College tax credits, loan rate reductions, opportunity for careers which eliminate payback of loans, green revolution jobs, end the war, universal healthcare.

What did she "hear" from Hillary. Her brain washing put those words in there, not Hillary.

Fear not. Her idealism and the cult have trapped her. Just play for her some of the youtube videos of The Hillary I know. See if she doesn't think differently when she sees a young Gulf War vet whose life she saved after he suffered anthrax vaccine-induced heart attacks in his twenties. Or listen to the words of Geraldine Ferraro speak about her. Or a ground zero worker who suffers all sorts of maladies that have ruined his health, and how Hillary rescued him from mortality. Your daughter has swallowed the Koolaid. And only Hillary's ultimate victory will break the spell.

So, work harder directly to help Hillary, and the intervention will be enacted when Obama returns to his rightful place, holding Rezko's hand.

You should send for my oldest daughter. Mandi would straighten your daughter out in five minutes. No illusions in that woman. A whole lot of "get real".

[SoCal4Hillary]

Something I forgot to mention: My mother--although she voted for Hillary in our primary--is also showing sexism. But in her case it's because it's so ingrained in her from her earlier years. I was stunned when she announced that Clinton "is only qualified to be president because her husband was." EXCUSE ME?! But she really said that. I find it ironic that although she's voting for Hillary, she doesn't GET that Hillary is qualified IN HER OWN RIGHT to be president... :confused:

[SoCal4Hillary]

Mom, your daughter needs an intervention.That made me smile. :) Yes, indeed, an intervention sounds like just the thing.
What did she "hear" from Hillary. Her brain washing put those words in there, not Hillary.Exactly. That's exactly how I see it, too.
Fear not. Her idealism and the cult have trapped her. Just play for her some of the youtube videos of The Hillary I know. See if she doesn't think differently when she sees a young Gulf War vet whose life she saved after he suffered anthrax vaccine-induced heart attacks in his twenties. Or listen to the words of Geraldine Ferraro speak about her. Or a ground zero worker who suffers all sorts of maladies that have ruined his health, and how Hillary rescued him from mortality. Your daughter has swallowed the Koolaid. And only Hillary's ultimate victory will break the spell.At this point, I doubt that any of that will make a difference. And this is REALLY hard for me...heartbreaking, actually...because it's clear that she's completely under the cult leader's influence at this point. Oh...you know where she lives? New York. Yep, the very NY of Ground Zero and Senator Clinton...so, no...I don't think any of it will get through to her now.

[Paine_Incarnate]

Sure, FDR did a lot in the great depression, but a bitch load of the credit goes to Hitler, and him starting WWII. Any historian will tell you that, if they're not afraid to say something positive about him.

Did she watch Hillary's speach this Tuesday? I felt that was one of her best speaches, and further ignited my passion to get this woman elected president.

[LetsHelpAmerica]

Well, that was a powerful poem!!
It is ashame that young women do not have
more role models to look up to as part of our
country's history! We have biographies and
national holidays for our 43 male presidents....
Network TV airs thousands and thousands of
hours covering sports figures in the NFL, NHL,
NBA, Baseball......
Boys and young men have many role models
that, in essence, supply motive, desire, and great
amounts of encouragement for success.
My heart is heavy during this campaign because we
are seeing so much of the old crap where a talented,
dedicated, and able woman is expected to take a back
seat to a man, regardless of his shortcomings.
I am willing to bet that very few young women know
the actual names of important women in US history.......women
who gained us the right to vote.......women who fought for
education, civil rights, civil liberties for all women. I wonder if
many young women realize that their right to choice could be
reversed if one more conservative judge is appointed to the supreme court.
Roe vs Wade could easily be overturned with another republican administration.
An Obama win in the primary elections would most definately guarantee a
McCain victory in the general election.
Do not young women understand the many years of advocacy and legislation
that Senator Clinton prepresents for woman's issues? I don't get it!!! It is a sore point with me because the position of President should not be some celebrity show.....some fad or kool-aid moment! Nor should we be so damn sexist at this time in our history! I just don't get it!!

[bernie gagliano]

The war started for us with Pearl Harbor. FDR got his high marks for the New Deal. Check the dates for which came first.

Having a Hitler to hate certainly helped but that is one hell of a trade off.

[SoCal4Hillary]

Did she watch Hillary's speach this Tuesday? I felt that was one of her best speaches, and further ignited my passion to get this woman elected president.I honestly don't know whether or not she watched that speech. Of course, if she didn't...*I* can't really fault her, since I didn't watch Oblahma's speech that night! (I tried to, really I did, but I couldn't stomach any more of his repetitive rhetoric. Unlike my daughter--and all the other seemingly normal people who've come under this cult leader's spell--I don't see ANYTHING interesting, invigorating, inspiring, or mesmerizing about his speeches!)

[joeysky18]

In my own experience with youngsters, the more I try to tell them that they are wrong on something the more they will cling on to it tighter. They need to come around by themselves. We found that attacking Obama doesn't change people's mind.

Your daughter seems to have a wrong impression of Hillary. Maybe you should share a heart warming story with her. Once she see that Hillary is not so bad, she will realize that what Obama has been bashing Hillary is wrong. And her high regards for Obama will diminish.

This is a very nice story of people touched by Hillary effort. We have been writing these kind of stories to swing vote for Hillary.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/3/16235/02624

It take patience to convince young people, they don't like to face the facts that they can be wrong.

[SoCal4Hillary]

When my daughter gave me her permission to post her reply, this is what she said (and ignore the all lowercase--she's breastfeeding my 2-month-old grandson!):
yes you can use my response... everything i've seen shows that hillary loses to mccain in the general election and obama wins.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html
Thoughts?

[Patsy]

All the polls were taken before March 4.

Tell her to wait and see what the new ones show. Even the MSM is expecting a jump for Hillary on that one.

[CGP]

My partner supports Obama. Suffice to say we have had to place a complete ban on politics when we communicate. :eek:

[BloodDAnna]

So how does she like Michelle Obama? Thats an angry woman, kinda reminds me of John Kerry's wife running her mouth about everyone and John Edwards wife running her mouth about Hillary. I don't remember Hillary behaving that way when Bill was running, I mean it's been awhile and my sons were little so maybe I wasn't up on the news but I just don't remember it.

As for the cult members I think as this campaign runs into Spring and maybe even early Summer some of the shiny new freshness of him will wear off.

I'm not anti-religion but does he not sound like a Southern Baptist minister when he speaks at rallies? The majority of younger people today (I'm old at 37) were not raised in any sort of religion or church so maybe thats what draws people to him. Just like people are drawn to go back to church every Sunday and how born again Christians sometimes go a little off the deep end in the beginning of their newfound faith. That would explain why so many of his followers project their hopes and dreams on him "He won't hide anything and will always tell us the truth" and "He will be there when I need him" or "He really cares about me and everyone else". Yes, those are really things I have seen online written by followers, they sound very similar to how people refer to God and Jesus Christ hence them likening him to the Messiah.

From what I understand his core base of followers are 18-25 or something like that, they are probably college kids who are away from home and need some validation and Obama gives that to them. This is where cults pick up members everyday, these are the kids that are most vulnerable.

The non stop subliminal message of "As President, I will......" just beats at peoples brains until they believe that he will in fact be the next President. I do think there is something to it because never in my life have I seen this type of behavior EXCEPT in cases like The Manson Family, Moonies and David Koresh's groups.

These are just my observations, please feel free to kick in with your own analysis.

[CGP]

When my daughter gave me her permission to post her reply, this is what she said (and ignore the all lowercase--she's breastfeeding my 2-month-old grandson!):

Thoughts?

Thes McCain/Obama and McCain/Clinton poll match-ups are 100% USELESS! They mean NOTHING! Just like the polls for the democratic nominee from 6 months ago mean NOTHING now! It's an erroneous comparison to make as well because Obama has never been in the national spotlight. If (he won't be) he was nominated, he would then be subjected to an extraodinary level of Republican scrutiny. His polls numbers would CRASH.

[SoCal4Hillary]

My daughter and son-in-law are past the 18-25 age group by several years...so they're not all THAT young. I really can't explain their buying into this Obama foolishness, as I thought they were both much smarter than that--and better informed, too. I'm shocked at their willingness to blindly follow their cult leader--a man with NO qualifications to speak of, no accomplishments to speak of, and nothing but unsubstantiated hype as his main attraction. I don't get it. :confused:

[BloodDAnna]

I work with a 22 year old who is all into Obama and she can't explain why and if you point out things he has said that are contradictory she defends him. She gets very defensive and obnoxious if you try to get her to explain why she thinks he will make a good President. I guess if you can't get a read on your own daughter then I know I'll never get it one on my co worker.

[Viktoriya]

I honestly don't know whether or not she watched that speech. Of course, if she didn't...*I* can't really fault her, since I didn't watch Oblahma's speech that night! (I tried to, really I did, but I couldn't stomach any more of his repetitive rhetoric. Unlike my daughter--and all the other seemingly normal people who've come under this cult leader's spell--I don't see ANYTHING interesting, invigorating, inspiring, or mesmerizing about his speeches!)
It was anything but inspirational. He can not take a loss. He was boring. If you didn’t see his rally before you would never think that this guy is inspiring people.
He did look like corporate junior manager. Aks your girl what she thinks about being strong and motivate others when you lost.

[SoCal4Hillary]

I work with a 22 year old who is all into Obama and she can't explain why and if you point out things he has said that are contradictory she defends him. She gets very defensive and obnoxious if you try to get her to explain why she thinks he will make a good President.This is the exact reaction I'm seeing not only from my daughter/son-in-law, but also from other Obama-ites I know in real life. What's up with that? Support, vote for, contribute to a candidate you're all gung-ho about...yet you can't explain WHY you support him? Just doesn't make sense. :confused:
I guess if you can't get a read on your own daughter then I know I'll never get it one on my co worker.Unfortunately, I think you're right. I thought I knew my daughter inside out, yet look what's happened! :eek:

[SantaCruzen]

My partner supports Obama. Suffice to say we have had to place a complete ban on politics when we communicate. :eek:

But at least if you can agree to disagree and let each own your individual freedom of speech, maybe there can be peace. :)

[SantaCruzen]

Yet now she continually gives me excuses for Obama being this and that. She is a Racial Appologist. My mom is from the daughters of the Mayflower. Our ancestor landed on Mayflower. Well... most of my mother's family are Republicans from the Swedish Colonies in Minnesota and North Dakota. My father is a German-Cherokee-Filipino. He was Mr. Popular during the Hippie revolution. My mom was a born again Christian at that time. Needless to say, they were like oil and water.

My mother always brought us into a variety of churches. Her last church she was a member of is an Afro-centric church.

A few decades later, my mother moves to Iowa and meets Native Americans and realizes after several decades of studying world religions, "Native Americans have got something." So, now she is an Obama fan.

Of course, my mother does know that he is not a saint or savoir. Still, I was born inside the whole Hippie Movement. My mother's friends were Hippies but she brought us to church. So, we were like the church hippies. She just just makes up excuses for why Obama does this and that.

[Carla]

Your daughter's quote: "It's exciting to see a woman run for president but that doesn't mean I should vote for her. And I don't buy the whole "lifetime of experience" argument either. FDR didn't have a lifetime of experience when he crafted the new deal and brought America out of the depression. JFK didn't have a lifetime of experience. Sometimes what's more important is that America as a whole can rally behind someone and their vision. "

Hi there SoCalForHillary:


Please mold my suggestions either softer or stronger, if you decide to use any of them, as I do not know what the dynamic is between you and your daughter. Without children of my own, I don’t want to pretend I can understand what you are going through with your daughter. I do however, remember what I went through with my own mother, and that it was a constant battle for independence by me, from her. My mother is dead now, and I wish I had listened to her more, because now I have less to hold onto without her here. So, send your daughter another e-mail.

Based on your daughter’s first sentence, either she didn’t read the poem or she doesn’t understand the real meaning. If she read the poem, maybe she doesn’t understand the meaning because she has never gone through what the women in the poem have gone through. It didn’t seem outdated to me. She needs to be made aware of, or talk to some women who have gone through those types of experiences expressed in the poem.

My two best friends, who are from Canada, don’t like Hillary and we often discuss the issue. One discussion got heated as it went on, as I found myself defending why I am voting for Hillary. All of a sudden, I just started telling them the story of my grandmother’s lives, and the hardships that they endured simply because they were women. My maternal grandmother was denied by her father, given away at four years old to be maid, spit on and called a ***** by my grandfather’s parents because she got pregnant at age 18. My own mother wanted to go to college and be a “career woman,” but was told by her parents (my grandmother being sexist without realizing) she couldn’t go to college because she was a woman. She got married at twenty-one and she lived a life interrupted. So, I am voting for Hillary for my Grandmothers and mother. “I am not voting for Hillary because she is a woman, I am voting for Hillary because I am a woman.” (Robin Morgan) Here is an excellent essay by Robin Morgan every woman should read: http://www.womensmediacenter.com/ex/020108.html.
Men and women both should be voting for all the women, men and children in the world who have been hurt by men’s power.

We are not voting for Hillary just because she is a woman. We are voting for her because she is JUST the most qualified woman. Anyone who thinks Hillary Clinton is not qualified does not know their facts.

Tell her that you want to understand where she is coming from more, and ask her to specify what is the negative tone that Hillary is using. How is Hillary talking down to the young voters? If your daughter thinks that Hillary is mocking Obama’s influence on young voters-I would say that she isn’t mocking -- Hillary is trying to tell young voters the truth (just like mom, see the connection here?) -- that Obama being president isn’t going to cure all their problems. Hillary is trying to connect to young people with the truth. Hillary is courting young voters. (Yuo can insert more details here) Chelsea Clinton, who I briefly met, is an amazingly warm woman and is a prime example of how Hillary is a positive effect on youth.

Obama is the one with the negative tone. He has said “ideas go to Washington to die,’ and ‘we need change.” Obama has “supposedly” been in office for two years. Why hasn’t he done anything while he was there to change Washington? He is in charge of the subcommittee on Afghanistan, yet hasn’t held one hearing. He has done nothing but be dismissive towards Hillary and her record as First Lady, saying “How is having 'tea”'with world leaders a qualification?” Excuse me, but Hillary traveled the world fighting for human rights as First Lady. She gave a speech in front of the Chinese telling them to stop killing baby girls. She introduced universal healthcare as First Lady, and even though it didn’t pass, Obama’s plan wouldn’t even exist if her plan had not.

I would ask your daughter what is it that she feels a part of, because in reality, what she is a part of is the target group of a mass marketing campaign by the media to sell their advertisers’ products. Young people are buying the products they see in magazines and on the internet because they are attracted to Obama, who is a good looking man and who has the charisma of a movie star. And just like most movie stars, he is empty inside.

Your daughter doesn’t buy the whole lifetime of experience argument? Really? Okay, then let me dissect her arguments:

1. Clinton is not claiming to have a lifetime of experience. She is claiming 35 years, starting at age 25. Hillary has been a U.S. Senator for seven years-insert more details here-advocate, First Lady, etc.. Besides that, why wouldn't you want a president with experience? That makes no sense? Would you want a surgeon without experience?

2. FDR didn’t have a lifetime of experience when he crafted the new deal, but almost. He had 22 years of government experience before he was elected president in 1932.
New York Senate-1910, then appointed Assistant Secretary to the Navy by President Wilson, Democratic nominee for Vice President in 1920, Governor of New York, 1928, and then he was elected as United States President in 1932. http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/fr32.html
.

3. JFK-He too had a lot of experience before he became president ,as a member of the House of Representatives for six years, and as a U.S. Senator for seven years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy.

4. How does Obama’s experience compare to all of this? It doesn’t. Obama is no Roosevelt, Kennedy, or Hillary Clinton. Obama --Illinois Senate – (1997-2004), U.S. Senate (2005 to present).

Your daughter’s stand of being behind someone else’s vision really upsets me. It sounds so cult like, and we all here have seen that with the amount of bashing we all take from Obama supporters. Other people have seen it too, like Tavis Smiley: http://www.correntewire.com/tavis_smiley_harshes_obama_mellow_gets_death_threa ts

We know that Obama’s vision is-to be the president. Ask your daughter what HER vision is, and see how it matches up against Obama’s and Hillary’s. I bet it matches up better to Hillary’s.

Also I would also like to know where all these young Obama supporters were in the last five years when they could have been speaking out against the war as loudly as they are speaking out for Obama to be president. Why does Obama have only one speech on record against the war (2002)? Oh yeah, he was too busy running for office and FUNDING the war once he got into the U.S. Senate. He didn’t start giving speeches about not being for the war again until he became a presidential candidate. (need a fact check here) Does your daughter know he wasn’t in the U.S. Senate at the time of the Iraqi resolution vote? It doesn’t anger her that he criticizes people for something that he knows nothing about? He wasn’t in the U.S. Senate at the time of the vote. John Kerry and Chris Dodd voted for the war, so why doesn’t Obama have a problem with their endorsements?

Someone asked me last week where Hillary would be without Bill, implying that she is where she is because of Bill. My response: Hillary would have been president 20 years ago.

That’s all I have to say. For now. I’m taking off tomorrow from work, so please message me with your thoughts.

[Valencia]

My partner supports Obama. Suffice to say we have had to place a complete ban on politics when we communicate. :eek:

when you say you say that you need to go to bed (@3 or 4 Am) because the noise of the keyboard does not let him sleep. Please don't tell me he runs a BO forum.:D

[EH]

Tell your daughter that while JFK might have technically not had a lot of experience, he had a lot of WORLD experience. He was well-traveled, while Obama has never even been to western Europe, save a layover in London on a flight back home from the middle east. How can he expect to meet with NATO allies if he knows nothing about them firsthand? Advisors are not enough; a commander in chief needs to know the deal long before his subordinates do.

[Valencia]

Is hard. I feel you. Your own daugther is one of the cult. Does she had explained you BO's accomplishments? Why she believe he is the most qualified for her? Why she does not like Hillary? Remember she is a fan, you are not. You are someone that is going with HRC, not because she is a goddes for you, but because you realize she is the most qualified one. So, sit with her, let her talk, & then explain her you reasons & the facts.

I just feel that some young people just vote like this is American Idol. You know, the BO Yes we can video,is a great video for me,just that. And yes it should be nominated for the Grammys, but not for the General Elections.

Actually that video is exactly a copy of the one Tha Vicente Fox had on his campaing for Mexico Presidency. The "Transparecy Government" of BO is a copy of Vicente Fox political campaign as well. If she lives in NYC, there are a lot of mexicans in there that I am pretty sure she can ask any of them what are the results of having Vicente Fox as Mexico President. ( By the way, I am Puertorican, my hubby is mexican, we met & got married in NYC.)

Hillary is a strong woman & scorpio like me. She is dealing on a men's world & she needs to be strong to survive. This is why a lot of people does not like her. because is our culture, woman should be sumiza & sweet.
and she is not like that. This is one of the reasons why Hillary is focus on the real change.

BO is taking advantage of her because she is a woman. But Hillary is so professional, that she had always express that she wants to be treated. equally. Like on the Ohio debate, when she basically said You know, you do not need to ask me the question first ( because I am a woman). She is fighting for every woman to be treated equal.

This woman had a crisis on her marriage when she was the First Lady. Obviusly, the whole world knows about it. But,she fought against the world for her marriage, her family, for her beliefs, she never gave up. And years later, this same woman , is the first woman in history running for USA President. But in our society, this is not the way it should be. As per our society she should still be crying & hiding from the world. Because we believe that cry is all that woman can do.

This woman represent the real change. Any way you see it on her life, means change. But people if affraid of changes. Because even thou we are facing an economical crisis, we are ok. there is still food on the table, money to go to bars, clubs, movies. Time to go shopping, etc. The philosophy of northamericans is why we need to change if everything is working, not the best but is working a lot better than in other countries.
We had never lack of anything. And we call the change, but when we see it coming we recognize it. But we are affraid.

Compare the BO's Universal H/C to Hillary's. His does not cover everyone just kids. Is exactly what we have right now. The only change is that he will force parents to get it for their kids.

Now, Hillary's affordable UHI covers anyone. The real change is that this woman is the only politician that believe that the biggest treasure of our nation is our people & this treasure should be insured.

Obama want to give every student the opportunity to learn a second language. He just talked about it in Texas because a big % of the population is hispanic. Why he did not said that in Ohio, or anyother state?
By the way High Schools in the USA offer courses on French, Italian, Germany, Spanish & other languages. So it is a good idea to offer a second languge, but not a new one. So, where is the change.

Oh! There is a lot more, probably I can write a book.

By the way why you do not invite her to this site. Probably is hard for her because you are her mother.

[floorrunner]

This is how I swayed some of the younger members of Obama's cult. I have earned the respect of many of the young people that I work with, because I have treated them like adults. Many of them were voting for the very first time. They were captured by Obama's charisma. I made it a policy to not talk about politics at work. I help them out a lot with their everyday struggles based on my own experiences in life. WE communicate with each other through myspace. I made my myspace page into a Hillary support page. everytime that they go to my page they see Hillary. I put a blog on there about why I was voting for Hillary. At least 5 of them said they got to thinking about why I was voting for Hillary and they changed their mind from Obama to Hillary and voted for her because I did not try to cram it down their throats. Maybe you can try to take an appraoch similar to this.

[RAFREE]

My daughter and son-in-law are past the 18-25 age group by several years...so they're not all THAT young. I really can't explain their buying into this Obama foolishness, as I thought they were both much smarter than that--and better informed, too. I'm shocked at their willingness to blindly follow their cult leader--a man with NO qualifications to speak of, no accomplishments to speak of, and nothing but unsubstantiated hype as his main attraction. I don't get it. :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

That's just a small over view of her "record" and doesn't include a lot.

I read some other young woman's reasoning on this earlier to day and frankly it ruined a good portion of my morning.

The "reasoning" was sketchy. Clinton has been less negative than Obama has here and we've seen it but that doesn't matter.

The "Just not This woman" argument isn't right either. As I've said before ..how much of her own record does she have to have? How perfectly will she have to behave? They've bought into a lot of propaganda about this woman when they haven't really been around to know or not know who she is.

What bothers me most is the argument that we can wait when she IS the most qualified of the two for this job. And should they have their way, what's is worse is the so many women who fought for a long time to see this happen will not be alive to see it at all if Hillary loses. They have NO real solid reason for denying those women this at all. There's no evidence he will be a better president. What is worse because of their vote then perhaps our first will be a right wing republican woman.

It's a slap in the face no matter why they say they are doing it because so far I haven't seen any solid or reasonable discussion of why they should not vote for her. I've heard excuses. And isn't it nice for them that they have all the time in the world. I cannot believe that this doesn't factor in.

I've got a friend I've had this discussion with, and most insulting of all is this argument. "Well, she might be qualified but, feminism has come so far and you should be happy that I can just chose her or not chose her." What?? No, pardon me but, I'd like to be alive to see this, I did the hard work AND to have someone who wasn't there say it's okay for them to just "skip it' On such thin reasoning IS extremely hurtful. I'm going to find it very hard to forgive or forget. I personally cannot help that. I think they are showing hubris of a kind that is very selfish and hurtful. Obama is only forty six, HE can run again. SHE cannot and yes, she IS more qualified. So? Yes they can vote for him and Yes they will but, to be denied this moment when Yes they Could wait is very, very hurtful and I've not really heard any particular reason why this is ok. And I'm not buying the thin reasons she soooo wrong for this position when we are overlooking so many things on Obama's behalf.

He gets a pass, she is nit picked.

They talk about Iraq which is something both candidates would address and yes those lives are precious but, Hillary has worked on women's and family issues her whole life. The leading cause of death in the U.S.A. of women between the ages of 18 and 44 is violence in their own homes. We lose THOUSANDS every year. This hasn't changed, or stopped and somehow that's just not as important as other issues related to violence.

Yes, that matters.

SoCal, I sent you the poem, it's DARK but, that IS so ingrained in how women live every day that it's second nature to most of us.

These young women don't take that so seriously right now. They are invincible being young. What's so ironic here is that I believe they are going to regret this vote. Obama is every bit as dirty a politician as anyone else....research is important here and not from his site..but, that argument wouldn't matter either. This is not logic based.

I think prividge shows quite blatantly in the young women especially who CAN vote Obama and not feel they are doing a dis service to those of us who want this moment too. KNOWING we won't see this moment again and knowing she would likely do a good job...to add insult to injury when I go around the net we are spoken of as totally disposible.

Those polls seem to reflect that they are factoring certain things...one of the polling companies is squarely in the obama camp AND he's not been vetted as he IS going to be in the upcoming race if he wins. Those republicans voting for him now will not stick and neither will the CORE dems who have been in this party for years. The majority of core dems save the African American vote are voting for her. We've been treated pretty badly here, and we know quite a lot about Obama. Enough that we won't vote for him....they numbers are at around thirty percent of dems now...he'll lose more later. He will NOT win against McCain without us and without his republican vote. You can't caucus your way in to the oval office in the G.E. Obama will lose.

[Patsy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

That's just a small over view of her "record" and doesn't include a lot.

I read some other young woman's reasoning on this earlier to day and frankly it ruined a good portion of my morning.

The "reasoning" was sketchy. Clinton has been less negative than Obama has here and we've seen it but that doesn't matter.

The "Just not This woman" argument isn't right either. As I've said before ..how much of her own record does she have to have? How perfectly will she have to behave? They've bought into a lot of propaganda about this woman when they haven't really been around to know or not know who she is.

What bothers me most is the argument that we can wait when she IS the most qualified of the two for this job. And should they have their way, what's is worse is the so many women who fought for a long time to see this happen will not be alive to see it at all if Hillary loses. They have NO real solid reason for denying those women this at all. There's no evidence he will be a better president. What is worse because of their vote then perhaps our first will be a right wing republican woman.

It's a slap in the face no matter why they say they are doing it because so far I haven't seen any solid or reasonable discussion of why they should not vote for her. I've heard excuses. And isn't it nice for them that they have all the time in the world. I cannot believe that this doesn't factor in.

I've got a friend I've had this discussion with, and most insulting of all is this argument. "Well, she might be qualified but, feminism has come so far and you should be happy that I can just chose her or not chose her." What?? No, pardon me but, I'd like to be alive to see this, I did the hard work AND to have someone who wasn't there say it's okay for them to just "skip it' On such thin reasoning IS extremely hurtful. I'm going to find it very hard to forgive or forget. I personally cannot help that. I think they are showing hubris of a kind that is very selfish and hurtful. Obama is only forty six, HE can run again. SHE cannot and yes, she IS more qualified. So? Yes they can vote for him and Yes they will but, to be denied this moment when Yes they Could wait is very, very hurtful and I've not really heard any particular reason why this is ok. And I'm not buying the thin reasons she soooo wrong for this position when we are overlooking so many things on Obama's behalf.

He gets a pass, she is nit picked.

They talk about Iraq which is something both candidates would address and yes those lives are precious but, Hillary has worked on women's and family issues her whole life. The leading cause of death in the U.S.A. of women between the ages of 18 and 44 is violence in their own homes. We lose THOUSANDS every year. This hasn't changed, or stopped and somehow that's just not as important as other issues related to violence.

Yes, that matters.

SoCal, I sent you the poem, it's DARK but, that IS so ingrained in how women live every day that it's second nature to most of us.

These young women don't take that so seriously right now. They are invincible being young. What's so ironic here is that I believe they are going to regret this vote. Obama is every bit as dirty a politician as anyone else....research is important here and not from his site..but, that argument wouldn't matter either. This is not logic based.

I think prividge shows quite blatantly in the young women especially who CAN vote Obama and not feel they are doing a dis service to those of us who want this moment too. KNOWING we won't see this moment again and knowing she would likely do a good job...to add insult to injury when I go around the net we are spoken of as totally disposible.

Those polls seem to reflect that they are factoring certain things...one of the polling companies is squarely in the obama camp AND he's not been vetted as he IS going to be in the upcoming race if he wins. Those republicans voting for him now will not stick and neither will the CORE dems who have been in this party for years. The majority of core dems save the African American vote are voting for her. We've been treated pretty badly here, and we know quite a lot about Obama. Enough that we won't vote for him....they numbers are at around thirty percent of dems now...he'll lose more later. He will NOT win against McCain without us and without his republican vote. You can't caucus your way in to the oval office in the G.E. Obama will lose.

They're quoting Oprah when she had her rally with the Kennedys. Her BIG thing was that as a woman she had the right to vote any way she wanted. That was what Feminism was all about. I'm just guessing here, but I don't think feminism is what she's really sidling up to.

We are supposed to be the Super Power of the World. We have yet to elect a woman to our highest office. Far behind many other countries. Some not even truly industrialized at the time.

These young people have no idea what is going to happen when they vote for Obama. The democrats will lose in November and economy, health insurance, war aside, there will be posts on The Supreme Court that need to be filled. How far back will that put women? Ask those young girls that question. We've fought too long and hard for them to have what they have and they do not even grasp the magnitude of the gift.

It is disheartening to say the least.

[SoCal4Hillary]

Carla, I can't thank you enough for the amazingly thoughtful reply you've posted. I'm tired now and know that I can't do it justice at the moment, so I'll save my real reply for tomorrow. But I just wanted to send you a quick 'thank you' because I really appreciate the effort you put into what you wrote. Let's talk more tomorrow, okay?

EDIT: Oh dear me! I posted the above before realizing how many other really good, thoughtful replies people had posted. To ALL of you, I'll reply for real tomorrow. For now, THANK YOU! :D

[RAFREE]

*HUGS* again. You've come to my mind many times....it's because I think you are really feeling this the way I am...the way many of us are. I mean okay you don't have to vote for her but, at least give me a good reason.

And Oprah wouldn't know what feminism meant in this case at all. She urged Hillary to run and then went for Obama because they go to the same church and frankly?? I think Oprah has issues with fawning over certain men in her life and I always thought she did. Besides, it's like skipping a step and Oprah is well off enough that maybe she can skip that step......many other women aren't.

[Carla]

This is how I swayed some of the younger members of Obama's cult. I have earned the respect of many of the young people that I work with, because I have treated them like adults. Many of them were voting for the very first time. They were captured by Obama's charisma. I made it a policy to not talk about politics at work. I help them out a lot with their everyday struggles based on my own experiences in life. WE communicate with each other through myspace. I made my myspace page into a Hillary support page. everytime that they go to my page they see Hillary. I put a blog on there about why I was voting for Hillary. At least 5 of them said they got to thinking about why I was voting for Hillary and they changed their mind from Obama to Hillary and voted for her because I did not try to cram it down their throats. Maybe you can try to take an appraoch similar to this.

Somewhere, either I blogged or e-mailed something simliar to what floorrunner is saying. I work in an enviroment where I have direct contact with people who assist me in my job. They are young, male and minorities. We all get along, but they don't support Hillary. They know I'm volunteering for Hillary, and I want to connect to them without turning them off. So, I basically did the same thing that floorunner did, and if I did talk about politics, I let them know I'm coming from a place where the reason is that I'm fighting for the rights of everyone on every level. I'm not fighting against another person's right of voting for whoever they want. So much of the media and Obama supporters are trying to hold Hillary supporters right to vote for Hillary. We all can see that. That is why we are here. So, anyway, after Hillary won 3 states, one of the kids came up to me and we talked for about an hour about the election, about Obama, and about Hillary. I don't know for sure where he stands on who he would vote for in the election, but I know he walked away from that conversation seeing Hillary in a new light. The thing is that he respects me, I respect him, and now he respects Hillary. So thanks for reminding us all that we have to remember that in the case of Hillary v. Obama, the burden of proof falls on us.

[debbrad]

I know the more you try to tell a child something the more they will rebel against it. Even when they grow up this does not change, I have found that out. I don't try to impose my thoughts on my children any more and I find that they ask my opinion more. We all learn from our mistakes, remember this will be over soon and the obamabots will loose there leader.

Here is a wonderful article by Robin Morgan that you can read to help you be strong. I think every woman should read it, men too!:)

Goodbye To All That #2 (http://www.womensmediacenter.com/ex/020108.html)

[navyvet48]

Here is an argument to support Senator Hillary Clinton. It might work but only if they have a real heart. I am a Navy veteran; I am 100% totally and permanently disabled due to my service to our great country. I rely upon the Department of Veterans Affairs for my medical care. The VA is so underfunded and understaffed I did not have a doctor for three months last.

During that time frame the VA did not inform me of a vital lab test since I was being bounced from doctor to doctor. The test showed there was a real chance of me having kidney disease. Just recently I had a test done by a urologist to show my kidneys are fine not because the VA informed of the test results but because a trip to an ER at a non-VA hospital informed of the problem. The VA did not even pay for my doctor visits, I did.

I am required to see a retinologist....(a doctor that specializes in retinal disease). The VA dropped the ball there as well. I ended up seeing the specialist at his outside the VA clinic for treatment. I needed laser surgery to save my right eye! I was able to have the surgery at his clinic. (The VA does not even have appropriate equipment to do the surgery...and are reluctant to approve necessary treatment outside the VA called fee basis).

Several years ago I required extensive surgery to remove the rest of my female reproductive system (I am service connected for this). The VA refused to get me in to see my GYN doctor in a timely manner (he is my private GYN as well, he is a contractor to the VA). My surgery had to be performed at a local hospital. I contracted numerous infections and was housebound for 4 months. My husband's insurance covered that mess to the tune of $25,000 .... not the VA who was required to cover me ... they lacked up to date surgical equipment to do the surgery.

Should I go on. Do I need to tell anymore?

Well there is a push across the United States as we speak for mandated funding for the VA. Many local elected officials in Chicago and Cook County, IL have signed on to get this issue on the November ballot in Illinois. Obama has not signed this petition to show his support.

It takes less than a minute to go to www.offe2008.org. Both Senators Clinton and Schumer from New York have signed the petition. The State of New York even passed a resolution supporting this effort.

I need this funding to be mandated to stop the drain on myself and my family. Please if your kids have any heart share this story with them. Maybe it will help them understand why Hillary as our president is more desired than the koolaid swilling Obama is.

Thank you for listening.

[SantaCruzen]

Here is an argument to support Senator Hillary Clinton. It might work but only if they have a real heart. I am a Navy veteran; I am 100% totally and permanently disabled due to my service to our great country. I rely upon the Department of Veterans Affairs for my medical care. The VA is so underfunded and understaffed I did not have a doctor for three months last.

...

Should I go on. Do I need to tell anymore?

Well there is a push across the United States as we speak for mandated funding for the VA. Many local elected officials in Chicago and Cook County, IL have signed on to get this issue on the November ballot in Illinois. Obama has not signed this petition to show his support.

It takes less than a minute to go to www.offe2008.org. Both Senators Clinton and Schumer from New York have signed the petition. The State of New York even passed a resolution supporting this effort.

I need this funding to be mandated to stop the drain on myself and my family. Please if your kids have any heart share this story with them. Maybe it will help them understand why Hillary as our president is more desired than the koolaid swilling Obama is.

Thank you for listening.

I am a 10% Disabled Veterans, injured on Active Duty Army while in the Army National Guard. At that time, I was a law enforcement officer off on leave of absence. After my injury, I had four bone surgeries--one a hip to shoulder joint bone replacement. I had to go through years of therapy, four to use my left arm. I actually have not gone to the VA hospital for years because I was tired of pain medications making me sick as well as cortisone shots which I felt was weakening my arm vs. controling pain. From some the Iraq Veterans I saw on a few televised interviews, the military medical has improved drastically. I know that my old injured areas are not healed due to nerve damage. I think that the lasted medical technology could help being that I have met senior citizens, including my mother's cousin, who have had bone replacement surgeries and state that they are not having pain.

I have written some letters and used those letters in petitions I signed using my synopsis as to why I feel that Universal Health Care is the solution for all americans. First, there are all of the Veterans who did not get medical care or treatment or Veterans Benefits because they did not know that they qualified. I fought for four years with a lawyer to get mine. Then there are all those people who victims of toxic chemical and nuclear waste that makes them ill over time and they do not know why they are ill. Next, there are all those victims of hurricanes and storms, flooding and fires, and earthquakes. Here in California, people who lost their homes may have become homeless Around Santa Cruz people's homes slid down the mountains. The City of Santa Cruz is just now still rebuilding some of the 1989 Earthquake damages buildings which were torn down after that earthquake. Basically, all americans deserve the right to Universal Health Care as more than we need federally funded freeways and buildings. Of course we need those but we need to be healthy as a priority.

Today, I was going to check to see if we have a Veterans For Hillary section yet. We need one. I was invited to attend the Veterans for Peace Conferences in 2004 and 2005. I refused to go in 2006 because I feel that we need less radical politicing. We need to stop complaining and create solutions.

Every Veteran who stands up is a standing up for our country.

[RAFREE]

On her main website in the video section under "The Hillary I Know" are a few vets who tell stories of how she helped them!! One young man who got back from Iraq and needed a life saving surgery. They got a hold of Senator Clinton when no one else would help them and she got him the surgery. "Hillary Clinton saved my life" is the last sentence he speaks in the video. There are MANY others. If you ask NYC firefighters, cops and port authority workers they will tell you she did far, far more for them than Rudy did and she didn't bring the media with her to WTC ground zero either like the rest of them did!! She went there and rolled up her sleeves and kept in touch with people.

I know she's been in contact and goes to veterans hospitals and has addressed issues of getting the BEST care for vets while she was in the Senate and still is doing this!

[eeslaomd]

you know, i can't understand why some people think/say hillary is running a negative campaign or taking a negative tone. i've watched her nationally televised speeches and for the life of me i can't recall her denigrating the youth's vote or choice, or saying anything untrue or insulting about her rivals. she did try to refute the bho camp's apparent spinning of her healthcare plans and NAFTA stance, and she has to respond when mud is flung against her. if pointing out bho's resume,body of work,track record(or lack thereof) is perceived by his followers as negative, surely it's not anybody's fault but his, for not showing anything substantive enough to be considered worthy for the position he's aspiring for. jfk for example, may have been relatively young when he ran for prez, but he has been in public office for more than a decade(?), he was a war hero, and he has been groomed by his own father who was as well in politics and public service. i don't think bho can be compared to jfk's (and his family's) record of public service and their courageous stance against the injustices in their time.
maybe you can ask your daughter gently if it is really negative to point out her candidate's deficiency, even if it's the truth? surely, if she needs to be treated for a serious illness (no argument that the bush admin. is one), wouldn't she want to know her doctor's abilities? for this, the doctor would be judged based on her training, her track record of treating patients (more success?) the number of patients she has had and how long has she been in practice(because skills and good discernment improve with experience!), and no less important, her personality and attitude towards work.
choosing a candidate without using logical thinking can be a dangerous thing. if the wrong one wins, the consequences are just too great. look where the country is now.

[eeslaomd]

My partner supports Obama. Suffice to say we have had to place a complete ban on politics when we communicate. :eek:

my husband was a republican but he has seen the light. he's rooting for hillary now! he likes mccain though, and we have made a deal. IF, God forbid, bho wins the democratic nomination, he can vote mccain.

[eeslaomd]

carla, you put the arguments so succintly it's just beatiful to read. may i copy this post, to send to a dear friend who's concerned about her cousin(and daughters),an obaman to a rabid degree?
thanks!
beth

[eeslaomd]

hahaha. you do have something there and there quite a number of people who has noted that messiahnic tone and its effect. i was appalled at the nastiness and fanaticism of bho's supporters when i started reading their blogs on the different websites, even at hillary's website before the trolls were edited out. you're thinking charles manson.david koresh,the moonies... i was actually thinking hitler, idi amin, marcos.

[SoCal4Hillary]

Oh dear... There are SO MANY great replies, ideas, stories, and suggestions that it would take me days to respond to them all point by point. Instead, I hope you'll all understand that I'm just going to ask for a little MORE advice.

I realize, of course, that you don't know my daughter, so just do the best you can with this question: Should I invite her HERE to read this thread? (And anything else she may want to read?) Instead of trying to tell her about the amazing input you're giving me, why not let her get it straight from the source?

Now, as I said, I know you don't know her, so here's a little background: She's bright, a college grad, and she grew up in a household where sexism wasn't allowed. She saw her dad cook, shop, vacuum, etc., and she saw me go to school preparing to be a doctor (a twist of life sent me on a different path just before med school), earn a lot more money than her father, and do it in a VERY male-dominated profession in the '80s. I don't think she ever saw gender as an issue, or even something to think about. I did my best to show her through the way I lived my life that women are EVERY BIT as capable as men to do anything we want.

Ironically, I think that because she didn't see sexism in her day-to-day life and grew up thinking that she could do or be whatever she wanted, regardless of her gender, she MISSED something really important: That it took decades, even centuries for women to get to that point. And I know she doesn't see that by supporting O-blah-blah-blah-ma (http://www.cafepress.com/saproducts/5017064), blindly, and with no real concept of what qualifies him to be president, she's actually doing something that has happened throughout history: Giving a younger, less qualified/less capable MAN a promotion over the older, more qualified/more capable WOMAN.

My objective wouldn't even be to change her mind, but just to give her some insight into what a TRULY qualified candidate looks like. What do you think? :confused: (And if she comes here, I definitely don't want her blasted. It's bad enough that she's an Obama-ite, and she'll have to live with that for years to come. Let's not punish her too much!)

(I'm going to post a separate reply to address some veteran-related issues.)

[SoCal4Hillary]

I wanted to post this separately from my other reply, so this wouldn't get buried in the other one's topic.

Thank you to those of you who've written about your experiences as veterans and the VA system. I am intimately familiar with the VA system because of two close relatives (both Air Force vets) and two close friends (both Marine vets, one male and one female) who rely--or relied--on the VA for their healthcare. The two Marine vets had to use the VA hospital in Dallas--which has been rated the WORST VA facility in the country numerous years in a row. (I don't know its standing in the most recent reports, but it was rated the worst in the recent past.) And because I frequently went with them for their appointments, I saw firsthand just how bad that place was. It was rated worst due to health/safety infractions such as IV pumps that were not sterilized between patients (gives me the creeps just thinking about it). I can't even begin to describe the problems they encountered there.

The male Marine got such a run-around from the Dallas VA that he eventually left TX and headed to Connecticut to see if things were better up there. By doing so, he did accomplish getting one of the two hip replacements he needed, but there was still a lot of red tape, waiting, and problems. So he headed back down to Dallas to get back on the waiting list there. (This is a VERY abbreviated version of what transpired, because it would take volumes to explain it in detail.) Last fall, after losing another several months due to VA red tape, and no longer having a place to live (he'd been unable to work since 2004)...he killed himself. He was 43. :( This veteran of the [first] Gulf war couldn't take any more crap from the VA and that, combined with the homelessness directly related to his physical inability to work--which kept dragging on and on due to crap from the VA--he just gave up and ate his gun.

In my opinion, this is shameful, disgraceful treatment of those who chose to serve our country. And I believe something really dramatic needs to happen to get the VA system consistently up to par across the country. It shouldn't matter where a vet lives! Why aren't ALL of the VA facilities operating on equal footing? And why do some of them operate with such disgusting, ongoing problems? After 8 years of Bush and his cronies slashing funds for VA hospitals, shutting down many VA facilities, etc., it's time for REAL CHANGE, not the empty promises of change and hope and...whatever else O-blah-blah-blah-ma comes up with. :mad:

[floorrunner]

I know the more you try to tell a child something the more they will rebel against it. Even when they grow up this does not change, I have found that out. I don't try to impose my thoughts on my children any more and I find that they ask my opinion more. We all learn from our mistakes, remember this will be over soon and the obamabots will loose there leader.

Here is a wonderful article by Robin Morgan that you can read to help you be strong. I think every woman should read it, men too!:)

Goodbye To All That #2 (http://www.womensmediacenter.com/ex/020108.html)
Wow that article made me quiver. I am a 45 year old man. It really supports why I am voting for Hillary. It got me thinking about all the strong women that have been in my life. I would not be here today if it were not for them, because of the poor choices I have made in my life. My mother, my 2 grandmothers and my best friend. They never turned their back on me. They were always there no matter what. That is what Hillary is all about. That is why I voted for her in Ohio this past Tuesday and Why I will vote for her in the general election. If she does not win the nomination, I don't know what I will do, because I can not vote for Obama.

[Reese]

! Obama surfs a wave of misogyny
BY Muppet – 2/11/08
Like many Democrats at the beginning of the primary season, I felt the happy rush of having "so many wonderful choices." And, yet, as time has worn on, I have become more and more disillusioned with the process, and throughout this last week, I have felt my anger and bewilderment at Obamamania spiral to a depressing peak.

I was born in India, and moved to the US with my family at a young age. I have lived as a woman torn between two cultures. In many ways, my native culture is a generation behind American culture in all things related to women and feminism. I have always related better to the American feminists of my mother's age than to the feminists of my own age. I know the sexism of the work place and the social scene that many young women face today, but I also know a deeper, life-threatening, soul-searing sexism that I think most American women of my generation have never experienced. They express their gratitude and then expect the older women to stop complaining and "get over it already." The struggle that feels like ancient history for many of my peers is not yet history for most women alive in the world today.

First of all, there is obviously a double standard applied to Senators Clinton and Obama. If Senator Obama faced the same constant tirade of racially motivated attacks we'd never hear the end of it, but somehow it's okay to heap hatred and sexist epithets on Senator Clinton - on a woman.

One of my good friends started a conversation off last week by telling me that not only does she support Senator Obama, but she hates Senator Clinton and she would never vote for her. When I asked why, she said essentially, "she is too ambitious, she comes off as 'smarter than everyone else,' and Bill [Clinton] destroyed Gore's chances in 2000." Not a single one of those answers is a substantive, rational reason to not vote for Senator Clinton. I'm proud that Senator Clinton has joined a very small handful of women who have steeled themselves for decades to brave this vicious political landscape. When I have a daughter, I would be proud if she decided at twenty years old that she wanted to be President and then worked for it her entire life. Doesn't every mother secretly suspect that her newborn son could be the president someday? Why then the double standard for a woman with that same ambition? Isn't Obama even more ambitious, who, at the age of 45 and with just two years of Senate experience, decided that he was more prepared than anyone else to become President of the United States? He moved to Illinois because Illinois is one of the few states that has historically elevated African American politicians beyond the local level - isn't that naked ambition (and all the more power to him, but let's call a spade, a spade, please)? Obama's polished speeches and impeccable vocabulary (which, by the way, I admire) not only sound intelligent but occasionally elitist. And aren't we beyond the point where we blame women for their husband's infidelity? There can't be many women who still believe it's fair to lose a job that she's otherwise qualified for because her husband cheated on her. It's a lose-lose situation for Senator Clinton. If she stays with him, half the people hate her; if she leaves him, the other half hate her. And who the hell are we to judge? Our viciousness and our accusations sound eerily like metaphorical equivalents of the stones cast at women under the Taliban regime - after all, they deserve to die for crimes committed against them by men, right?

If you say, as many do, that you support Senator Obama because you don't agree with Senator Clinton's vote on the authorization to go to war or her mandatory health insurance plan, then I say, "okay, I respect that." If you say that you are impressed by his tenure as President of the Harvard Law Review and his work as a community organizer, a Constitutional Law lecturer, and a state legislator in Illinois, then I say, "okay, I respect that." If you say that you support Senator Obama because you read one or both of his books and were impressed by the depth of his analysis and clarity of thought, I say, "okay, I respect that." If you believe that Senator Clinton might be too beholden to special interests, I respect that, but I also believe you need to take a long, hard look at Senator Obama, whose list of political obligations grows as big donors come out of the woodwork with every electoral success.

I also fully respect the deep, visceral longing that many voters feel when they think about having an African American (or bi-racial) family in the White House. What an amazing symbol of hope he could be for young black men, the most disenfranchised members of our society. What a powerful sign that our country is finally learning and growing beyond its past prejudices and into a post-racial era (of course, the exit poll breakdowns are an immediate reality check; identity politics are as "in" as ever). It's the same yearning I feel as a woman when I think of President Hillary Clinton, and it's the same hope I want for my future daughter. But I also support Senator Clinton because she's brilliant, hard-working, experienced (and, no, I don't think the past is something to run away from - see below), specific, thorough, and, yes, inspirational. I agree with her that mandates are the only route to truly universal (and affordable) health care, and I believe that she is more knowledgeable and better prepared to deal with both our economic and foreign policy challenges. I forgive her for her vote to authorize the war, knowing the pressure she was under both as the country's most prominent woman needing to prove her street cred (let's face it, she would have been lambasted either way) and as the freshmen senator from the state that suffered the greatest casualties on 9/11, the state that continues to be one of the prime targets for terrorism in this country. I don't always agree with her on everything, but I do believe she is the most qualified person to lead this nation forward.

But when I hear interviews with groups of college voters who can't articulate a single specific reason for their support of Senator Obama; when I can find very little of substance in the same stump speech he delivers everywhere; when I know that it is indeed a 26-year old speechwriter (according to a glowing feature in the New York Times) masterminding those luminous speeches (everyone has to have speechwriters, of course, but if that's what he's MOST widely known for, then it begins to feel like the guy behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz); I have to wonder what in the world is going on in this country? I wish his speeches had more meat. I wish he would more consistently show us the nuanced, sharp-as-tack insight I came to love in his books. I want to believe he's got substance, and I want him to demonstrate it, to apply it more directly and consistently during this campaign. I don't want to feel like I have to join the group-think brigade and simply have "faith" that he'll be a good President because I read somewhere that he's capable.

I, too, worked as a community organizer and was trained in the same school of urban organizing that Senator Obama was (Saul Alinsky's Industrial Areas Foundation; Alinsky was also one of Senator Clinton's early influences), and that is precisely why his calls for unity strike me as disingenuous. What I learned from my years in organizing is that the more privileged you are, the less tolerance you have for conflict. Conflict is uncomfortable; it's threatening; it's not polite. The refrain we most often hear from well-to-do liberals is "why can't we all just get along?" I'll tell you why: people who have experienced oppression directly are ANGRY. Not go-out-and-shoot-people-at-the-mall angry. It's a slow-burning anger that says, "I don't care if you're uncomfortable with my demands, with the pitch of my voice, with the intensity of my commitment." Fundamentally changing the balance of power is hard (or we would already have a just society!), and no one, not even we well intentioned, well-to-do liberals, can afford to pretend that it won't require a fight (with our own souls, in fact, not to mention with those whose reach extends to the very roots of power in this country). By its very nature, change at a fundamental level is going to mean that the Haves have to give up some of their privilege, and they won't be doing it willingly. That doesn't mean coalitions aren't important; on the contrary, they're critical to success. But it does mean that conflict and discomfort are unavoidable - unity for the sake of unity is pointless at best and counterproductive at worst, especially in a nation fundamentally organized around tensions, around a "balance of power." We were meant to argue, disagree, take different perspectives, negotiate, and, by doing so, moderate each other's views. I take exception to Senator Obama's campaign because I believe that he's co-opted the tools of broad-based organizing and is manipulating them to promote a political process that is more appealing to privileged elites, and by doing that, I think he is indeed offering false hopes that will ultimately undermine the social justice movement. To the extent that this narrative is about race, it's also very much about class.

We see this in the very fact that he's won 9 out 10 of the caucus states (and arguably, he won Nevada, too. In Nevada, Senator Clinton, despite her campaign's fears, did relatively better than in other caucuses, I think, because working-class employees were allowed to caucus at work). After working as a community organizer for over five years, I can guarantee you that the vast majority of people who can and will show up for a 2-3 hour political process are college students and the upper middle class. This is Senator Obama's prime demographic (especially in the caucus states, where there have been relatively low African American populations). Senator Clinton's main demographic, low-income and blue-collar voters, simply do not have the time and luxury to participate in such a process. For example, without transportation, childcare, and meals, many low-income voters would not even be able to attend. And even with those resources, caucusing can be very intimidating. Many people have very little experience with the type of overt, political discourse a caucus requires, and without preparation, support and relationship-building, they are likely to remain silent and invisible.

Anyway, in the end, it isn't going to matter how poetically Senator Obama calls for unity. It isn't up to him. It takes two to tango, as the saying goes, and his dance partners aren't going to willingly sway to his tune. The Clintons know this first-hand after twenty years of partisan attacks. We often forget that despite everything the Kenneth Starr Republicans tried to pin on Senator Clinton, she was found INNOCENT of all charges. Senator Clinton didn't lead our country down a path of bloody fueds during the 90s. The Republicans did. Even one of our very first attempts at Universal Health Care, however flawed, has been tainted as somehow immoral and deceptive. By spewing such hatred toward her now, we are punishing Senator Clinton for being attacked in the first place, and we are letting the Republicans manipulate our worldview.

Finally, I am distressed by the way that Senator Obama's campaign has capitalized on our culture's obsession with youth and all things young. He is essentially calling upon us to discard the past and to throw Senator Clinton away with it. But as the first woman president, she would not be the past. She embodies the future. Though I am not much older than Senator Obama's college voters, I have to admit a certain impatience with the arrogance they display. You have to be somewhat privileged to be attending college nowadays, and for them to assume that they alone know what's right for the rest of the country (the world!) is naive at best and narcissistic ignorance at worst. Perhaps because I come from a culture that respects its elders far more than this one does, I find many of his supporters to be self-indulgent and overly righteous. The contrast was made stunningly clear in an interview on Larry King Live of young surrogates from both Senators Clinton and Obama's campaigns. Senator Obama's young celebrity representatives were not able to provide any specific answers or concrete policy proposals when asked pressing questions about the future; on the other hand, Senator Clinton's representative, America Ferrera, was amazingly articulate and knowledgeable. And, again, this doesn't apply to everyone, but the media does tend to focus on Senator Obama's screaming mobs more than the thoughtful, well informed students. I suspect, in this and other ways, the media has done a disservice to all of us.

I am fully willing to acknowledge that there are many intelligent, thoughtful Obama supporters out there (like my fiance) who have weighed their decision very carefully, and I respect you and I am thrilled by the energy of democracy in action. Senator Clinton is certainly not perfect, either, and I think this dialogue could be fabulous and enlivening. However, you must understand that what we see in the media are the Obama "rock concerts," with thousands of swooning young people in the throes of their Obamagasms. We see Senator Clinton's breathtaking grasp of policy and detail, and her thoughtful, specific speeches, and, in contrast, his airy rhetorical flourishes and his slightly bumbling debate responses. We see videos like Obama Girl's (which I find tasteless for the way it reinforces both our hypersexualization of young women and black men) that emphasize Senator Obama's youthful attractiveness, and, in contrast, have to put up with constant, offensive Hillary-hating rants and critiques of her clothing, thighs and ankles. We've heard Senator Clinton apologize for the insensitive comments made by her surrogates (at least a few of them); we've never heard Senator Obama apologize for the avalanche of sexism dumped on Senator Clinton by the voters in his camp. We've never even heard him call them out on it, not even when a pundit recently accused Senator Clinton of "pimping out her daughter in some weird sort of way" because Ms. Clinton was willingly campaigning for her own mother. You have to understand that it begins to feel that, if Senator Obama wins this nomination, his political machine will have done so largely through charisma and by exploiting a tidal wave of youthful narcissism, privilege, and, most of all, misogyny.

I think Senator Obama needs to carefully rethink his arrogance when he claimed, "I am confident I will get her votes if I'm the nominee. It's not clear she would get the votes I got if she were the nominee." Confident, huh? That's dangerously presumptuous, and the more he pushes that line, the more he polarizes the party.

[SoCal4Hillary]

I think Senator Obama needs to carefully rethink his arrogance when he claimed, "I am confident I will get her votes if I'm the nominee. It's not clear she would get the votes I got if she were the nominee." Confident, huh? That's dangerously presumptuous, and the more he pushes that line, the more he polarizes the party.Yes, let's hope that smug underachiever comes to his senses about what will happen to Hillary's votes if he is the nominee. As I've said elsewhere, I will absolutely, unequivocally NOT vote for Obama under any circumstances. I don't care if his opponent in the general election is the devil himself, I still wouldn't vote for Obama. Confident, huh? I don't think so!

[Reese]

You have received some very good suggestions about how to handle your daughter. It breaks my heart, too when I hear about someone else who is caught up in the hype and it seems, has been virtually thoughtless about the impact of their decision.

I began to compile a sort of resume of Hillary's achievements but got exhausted trying to put them all together. The following is 2-3 pages in Word, -- if I had gathered it all it might have been 20 pages. I, for example, did not know that she had at least two Humanitarian Awards. I do have more very good resources that I can provide, as well as links, if you need them. (Some very good links are already mentioned.) Even if this doesn't help with your daughter, it may help you educate another voter.

Good luck to us all.
--------------------
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON

Here are JUST A FEW highlights:

HILLARY’S EARLY CAREER


· At Yale Law School she served on the Board of Editors of the Yale Review of Law and Social Action.
· During her second year, she worked at the Yale Child Study Center learning about new research on early childhood brain development and working as a research assistant on the seminal work, Beyond the Best Interests of the Child (1973).
· She also took on cases of child abuse at Yale-New Haven Hospital.
· She volunteered at New Haven Legal Services to provide free advice for the poor.
· In the summer of 1970, she was awarded a grant to work at Marian Wright Edelman’s Washington Research Project, where she was assigned to Senator Walter Mondale’s Subcommittee on Migratory Labor, researching migrant workers’ problems in housing, sanitation, health and education.
· She was the first student commencement speaker at her college graduation resulting in her appearance on the cover Life magazine, (remember - as a college graduate!)
· Served as staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund.
· Consultant to the Carnegie Council on Children.
· During 1974 she was a member of the impeachment inquiry staff in Washington, D.C., advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal.
· As First Lady of Arkansas, legal advisor at the Children’s Defense Fund & was active in a number of organizations concerned with the welfare of children.
· First female partner at Rose Law Firm
· Listed as one of the one hundred most influential lawyers in America in 1988 and 1991
· Published the scholarly articles "Children's Policies: Abandonment and Neglect" in 1977, and "Children's Rights: A Legal Perspective" in 1979.
· Co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families
· President Jimmy Carter appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation 1978 - 1981. Served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so.During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million

FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES

WEB SITE: http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/First_Lady/html/HILLARY_Home.html

HUMANITARIAN

· Received the Children of Chernobyl Lifetime Humanitarian Award
· 1994 - Elie Wiesel Humanitarian Award for her work on behalf of the rights of women and children.

· Founding Chair of the Save America's Treasures program, a national effort that matched federal funds to private donations for the purpose of preserving and restoring historic items and sites, including the flag that inspired the Star Spangled Banner and the First Ladies Historic Site in Canton, Ohio.
· She was head of the White House Millennium Council, and initiated the Millennium Project.


POLICY PROJECTS

· Chaired the Task Force on National Healthcare
· Worked for the passage of the Children's Television Act. That law led to the implementation of the V-Chip in every new television over 13 inches, and mandated that broadcasters show at least 3 hours of educational and informational programming each week. She urged parents to become more vigilant consumers of media.
· In 1997 she helped establish the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP)
· Helped establish the Adoption and Safe Families Act to correct problems that were inherent in the foster care system that deterred the adoption of children with special needs.


INTERNATIONAL
· Spoke at The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, Arusha, Tanzania March 24, 1997
· Spoke as First Lady to Samarkand, Uzbekistan November 14, 1997 on Cultural Diversity: on behalf of her husband, President Clinton, and the American people to reinforce the young but strong and growing ties between our two countries.
· Spoke out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.
· She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
· Spoke as in Kampala, Uganda about democracy and human rights - March 25, 1998
· Spoke at the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing against human rights crimes against women at the in 1995 where she said “Women’s rights are human rights and human rights are women’s rights.”

UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM NEW YORK
· Called for an independent Katrina Commission
· Voted against the confirmation of John Roberts as Chief Justice of the United States and against the nomination of Samuel Alito to the United States Supreme Court.
· In 2005, she called for the Federal Trade Commission to investigate how hidden sex scenes showed up in the controversial video game Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.
· Helped introduce the Family Entertainment Protection Act, intended to protect children from inappropriate content found in video games.
· In July 2004 and June 2006, voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment that sought to prohibit same-sex marriage.

* WHAT HILLARY SAID ABOUT THE RESOLUTION TO AUTHORIZE FORCE AGAINST IRAQ
October 10, 2002: Floor Speech of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on S.J. Res. 45: “My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world. …I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections. …A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort.”

· 2005 - addressed the National Security Challenges of Our Time: Fighting Terror and the Spread of Weapons of Mass Destruction
· 2005 Ohio - Led Governor Vilsack’s challenge to lead the American Dream Initiative
· Spoke to the 2005 American Israel Public Affairs Committee Policy Conference
· Spoke to the Families USA Annual Health Action Conference 2/27/05
· November 25, 2005 Spoke at the INTERNATIONAL DAY FOR THE ELIMINATION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN - In the Senate that fall 2005, she co-sponsored legislation renewing the Violence Against Women Act.
· 9/21/06 called for PROBE into US CRONYISM IN IRAQ
· Introduced the Education For All Act in Congress
· Supported the Small Business Administration and SBA loans to those in need
· The first First Lady elected to the U.S. Senate
· Co-sponsored The 9/11 First Responders Health Monitoring Amendment (SPONSORED BY SENS. VOINOVICH AND HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON)

Reese's Comments:

Remember: Former First Lady and Senator Clinton has been a dedicated, honorable, serious and consistent public servant for 35 years. Virtually all of this work has been in the form of unpaid contribution to the United States. Her work has benefited all citizens especially those unable to fend for themselves. She is brilliant with a clarity of thought and unmatched depth and breadth of knowledge about issues that affect our nation. Time after time she has a demonstrated record of a hands on, roll-up-your-sleeves approach to problem solving. She has demonstrated an ability to work with and for people of all beliefs and races to achieve progress and results. She has demonstrated real tenacity, substance and a strong moral compass in all areas of her life. She has received many awards for her humanitarian efforts, she has led countless committees and teams to the benefit of us all. She has done and will do the absolute best job of leading the United States. SHE’S THE ONE!

[SoCal4Hillary]

Wow! Thanks for that, Reese. That's amazing. :)

[SantaCruzen]

you know, i can't understand why some people think/say hillary is running a negative campaign or taking a negative tone. i've watched her nationally televised speeches and for the life of me i can't recall her denigrating the youth's vote or choice, or saying anything untrue or insulting about her rivals. she did try to refute the bho camp's apparent spinning of her healthcare plans and NAFTA stance, and she has to respond when mud is flung against her. if pointing out bho's resume,body of work,track record(or lack thereof) is perceived by his followers as negative, surely it's not anybody's fault but his, for not showing anything substantive enough to be considered worthy for the position he's aspiring for. jfk for example, may have been relatively young when he ran for prez, but he has been in public office for more than a decade(?), he was a war hero, and he has been groomed by his own father who was as well in politics and public service. i don't think bho can be compared to jfk's (and his family's) record of public service and their courageous stance against the injustices in their time.
maybe you can ask your daughter gently if it is really negative to point out her candidate's deficiency, even if it's the truth? surely, if she needs to be treated for a serious illness (no argument that the bush admin. is one), wouldn't she want to know her doctor's abilities? for this, the doctor would be judged based on her training, her track record of treating patients (more success?) the number of patients she has had and how long has she been in practice(because skills and good discernment improve with experience!), and no less important, her personality and attitude towards work.
choosing a candidate without using logical thinking can be a dangerous thing. if the wrong one wins, the consequences are just too great. look where the country is now.

There are two types of Negativity: 1) the opposite end of a polarity and 2)criticism. Criticism does not have to be negative. Constructive criticism is when you tell someone the truth or tell them to look at the truth so that they or others can see it. That is what Hillary Clinton is doing. Yet, the Obama media are spinning that into a criticism which is judgmental or derogatory. She is not being derogatory. She has asked him to prove himself.

[Patsy]

There are two types of Negativity: 1) the opposite end of a polarity and 2)criticism. Criticism does not have to be negative. Constructive criticism is when you tell someone the truth or tell them to look at the truth so that they or others can see it. That is what Hillary Clinton is doing. Yet, the Obama media are spinning that into a criticism which is judgmental or derogatory. She is not being derogatory. She has asked him to prove himself.

Very well put.

[SoCal4Hillary]

Any thoughts on inviting my daughter here to read this thread? I know that now with membership--and the number of threads--picking up, it's hard to avoid getting lost in the shuffle, but I'd really appreciate some feedback on asking her to come here and read what's been said. :confused:

There are two types of Negativity: 1) the opposite end of a polarity and 2)criticism. Criticism does not have to be negative. Constructive criticism is when you tell someone the truth or tell them to look at the truth so that they or others can see it. That is what Hillary Clinton is doing. Yet, the Obama media are spinning that into a criticism which is judgmental or derogatory. She is not being derogatory. She has asked him to prove himself.Very well put--and absolutely true. It pisses me off to no end that the Obama cult--and, of course, the media :rolleyes:--are spinning Clinton's LEGITIMATE concerns into something it isn't, i.e., a bad thing. WHY is asking a PRESIDENTIAL candidate to prove himself a bad thing, or a negative thing? What do the cult members--and the media--want to have happen instead? How about electing an unqualified president, only to find out that SOMEONE should have insisted on making him prove why he deserved to be president. Yeah, let's wait until that 3:00am phone call to find out what we [Hillary supporters] already know, that Obama is NOT PREPARED to be president...

[Optixmom]

As a Mother of two, raised in a sexism-free zone, Rochester New York resident, these are some quick reasons why I vote for Senator Clinton:


She fights to support equal access to childcare for any income level.
She fights to increase the minimum wage, so that working one job contributes to a better way of life (not 2 or three).
She fights for Universal Health Care, so that the parents can keep themselves healthy to take care of their children.
She identifies Green Collar Jobs and Reconstruction Jobs that ultimately decrease our dependence on oil, create real jobs that pay real money, create jobs that cannot be outsourced, and make our roads and bridges safer for everyone.
She is the only Democratic Candidate endorsed by over 27 high-ranking Military officials (Generals, Admirals, etc.). THEY believe she is the most qualified to be Commander-in-Chief, therefore so do I.

[HillWill]

I think Michelle obama's comment that if Hillary can't run her own house, she certainly can't run the white house - was the lowest of all comments made in this race. It came from a woman, wife and mother. It came from the person closest to Obama. It should give your daughter some insight and intrepidation as to how this comment reflects Obama's private thoughts and conversations with his family and friends. It should give your daughter pause, as she is a wife and mother and God forbid, she is faced with similar problems. Does a husbands' misdeeds disqualify you from a job?

I was at a dinner last night with a bunch of "hippies" - 600 or 700 of them. I was pleasantly surprised when a very well-known African American activist from Detroit said to me (did my best to paraphrase), "I have a problem with this young and old issue. The young do not understand that it takes decades for certain policies to reach the top of the heap, e.g., universal healthcare. If it wasn't for the hard work of the old, the young wouldn't even have an opportunity to discuss those policies and see them become a reality. They need to learn their history. There is a candidate in this race that is taking the work of the old and showing it off in a new package. And, I will not sit back and ignore the outrageous sexism being played out - it is a form of racism."

Read the blog: http://breaktheglassceiling.blogspot.com
thanks and good luck - but don't give up.

[SoCal4Hillary]

I think Michelle obama's comment that if Hillary can't run her own house, she certainly can't run the white house - was the lowest of all comments made in this race.Agreed. What a low-life. Of course, this is the same woman who has never felt proud of her country before, too. :rolleyes:
It came from a woman, wife and mother. It came from the person closest to Obama. It should give your daughter some insight and intrepidation as to how this comment reflects Obama's private thoughts and conversations with his family and friends. It should give your daughter pause, as she is a wife and mother and God forbid, she is faced with similar problems. Does a husbands' misdeeds disqualify you from a job?At this point, I don't know what to expect from my daughter--and that's something very hard to accept, because we've always been on the same wavelength on SO MANY big things in life. But, yes, you'd THINK this would have an impact on her.
...a very well-known African American activist from Detroit said to me (did my best to paraphrase), "I have a problem with this young and old issue. The young do not understand that it takes decades for certain policies to reach the top of the heap, e.g., universal healthcare. If it wasn't for the hard work of the old, the young wouldn't even have an opportunity to discuss those policies and see them become a reality. They need to learn their history. There is a candidate in this race that is taking the work of the old and showing it off in a new package. And, I will not sit back and ignore the outrageous sexism being played out - it is a form of racism."I LOVE that.
Read the blog: http://breaktheglassceiling.blogspot.com
thanks and good luck - but don't give up.I'm looking at the blog right now and I'm going to add links to it on my web site (http://www.smartassproducts.com) and blog (http://smartassproducts.blogspot.com), because I really want people to see it.

Thanks again. :)

[HillWill]

I really love that you posted hillary's speech at the time she voted for the authorization to use armed forces in Iraq. The most telling parapgraph, and something i think Hillary needs to repeat (NOW), is this one:
"And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am."
I think people will get that totally in understanding her vote.
Thank you!

[SoCal4Hillary]

Thanks for the nice comments about my blog, HillWill. :)

Yes, absolutely, I agree with you that Hillary--perhaps in an ad--should make use of parts of that speech, especially about seeing the aftermath of 9/11 in NY up close and personal. The worst thing that happened [in my opinion] during the 2004 campaign was that Kerry's camp didn't respond strongly and quickly enough when the opposition attacked him. (Remember the swift boat crap?) I was SO HOPING that this time around, whoever our candidate was wouldn't let the Republicans pull something similar--but I didn't expect crap like this from WITHIN our party. I only thought it would be a problem AFTER we had a nominee and the other side started attacking them.

[HillWill]

Thanks for the nice comments about my blog, HillWill. :)

Yes, absolutely, I agree with you that Hillary--perhaps in an ad--should make use of parts of that speech, especially about seeing the aftermath of 9/11 in NY up close and personal. The worst thing that happened [in my opinion] during the 2004 campaign was that Kerry's camp didn't respond strongly and quickly enough when the opposition attacked him. (Remember the swift boat crap?) I was SO HOPING that this time around, whoever our candidate was wouldn't let the Republicans pull something similar--but I didn't expect crap like this from WITHIN our party. I only thought it would be a problem AFTER we had a nominee and the other side started attacking them.

I did expect it. I hope nobody takes offense, but it started with howard dean and moveon.org - they would have destroyed anyone that voted for the iraq authorization - if they were powerful enough. Just last year, I remember talking with someone high up at moveon.org and I simply said that i felt they weren't as diverse as they should be and why don't they have a presence in the inner cities. I also said that when they started turning into a single issue group (anti-war), they weren't representing the diverse interests of the progressive movement. Well, you know they didn't like that very much. I just know that I was a member of moveon.org from its onset - long before it was popular. It was not a single issue org back then. It became one and from that led to their endorsement of obama.
Now, they are completey ignoring the fact that Senator Obama was amazingly one of the few dems that voted in favor of limiting citizens' rights to class action lawsuits - even after attorney generals from across the nation said that the bill was taking away rights of citizens. How,moveon.org could endorse such a candidate, is appalling. But then again, not, because they have become only concerned with the war and have forgotten so many other issues blocking our progress.

[Reese]

Wow! Thanks for that, Reese. That's amazing. :)

You are most certainly welcome.

Regarding your daughter:
First, anticipate the three most critical arguments she may likely make.
Second, I think you should try to "naturally" pick up the discussion again, making sure she in no way feels defensive. No matter how angry you get-- which is hardest for me.
Third, be ready to share your (soundly considered) reasons as a "give and take." Be aware that a lot of hers may be emotional and illogical (as most tend to be.) Also, try to clarify more about WHY equality for women and Hillary's success is important to you. She didn't get it, but I would imagine one of the most important reasons is that you want her to have ALL of the advantages and opportunities available in this country regardles of her gender. And, it's because you love her. The NOW.org web site may help you with women's issues as well as with direct quotes to demonstrate media bias. Also, let her know that you have learned that the media has one objective -- ratings at any cost, including quality of work. They sensationalize material, tell half-truths or lies in order to keep viewers. Unfortunately, it becomes the "rose-colored glasses" through which many people begin to view the world.
Fourth, if she has an objection for which you are unprepared, ask her if you research it to learn more about that issue, if she is open to talking about it more.
Fifth, I don't think you'll get her to read this web site yet -- you might just give her one document to read that you think will help. Then discuss. Then, give her one more supporting document, etc.
Sixth, HANG IN THERE! Even if you don't pursuade her, you may pursuade someone else!

[Bacio83]

Just have to say as a 24 year old College Grad who is working in a Non profit org, and doesn't have to pay for my medical benefits (and is 110% behind Universal Healthcare) I shake my head at those my age who are so blindly supporting Obama.

The "There's this movement" speech makes me want to smack them upside the head. I've gone to college, graduated in 2005 and there I met some of the most stupidest people in my life LOL. This whole "college graduates" that Obama touts are sadly mistaken, anyone who's in college or has graduated some time after the 'No child left behind clause' is far worse off than those of us who got out of High School just in time to cry ourselves to sleep when Clinton left office.

With that said, there are many of us under the age of 25 who can see the truth and aren't struck dumb with this Obama-mania.

Actually my parents tell me to stop with the Hillary Clinton this and Hillary Clinton that.... LOL

I made my Dad watch HRC's senate speech before she made her vote in 2002 for troops in Iraq... he still doesn't get it though. No worries he's still an HRC supporter :)

And a side note, my brother who is biracial and not college educated, was a jock in HS and barely passed his courses is a Obama supporter... based IMO soley that he's a Biracial AA male like himself. He doesn't have insurance and recently complained when he had to get a tooth extracted.

His complaint "This stupid country, if I was in Germany right now I'd have health insurance." My response to him, "If Hillary Clinton was President you'd have Health Insurance." *shakes head*

[cgarrett]

I thought maybe it would help to post here a copy of my post on the ''What Brought you here...." section. Your daughter acts like all the womens' struggles were so far in the past, which is exactly what I (stupidly) thought when I began working in the corporate world in 1982, which is not all that long ago. I thought my experiences might help, so here it is:


"Thanks to Hillary!
I used to dislike [actually, I almost hated....] Hillary (going back to the baking cookies days)...then one day recently I realized that Hillary was one of those (very few) women partners who cleared the way for women like me, in the high profile law firm for which I used to work. Those women had to be tough because they were invading a men's world. But of course, the men who were uncomfortable with those women labeled them "aggressive" and "*****y" because they weren't subservient and in awe of the male partners, which of course the men were used to! You all know what many of those male lawyers were like; arrogant and with an inflated sense of self-worth: precisely why they are so reviled by many non-lawyers today. Unfortunately, women contributed to that syndrome by falling all over them like they were so wonderful.... especially their secretaries!! And then, supposedly, we became "equal."

I began practicing law in 1982 in a highly regarded corporate firm, and you wouldn't BELIEVE what I had to put up with. It never occurred to me it would STILL be such a men's club. I was a NORMAL female- bright, socially adept, reasonably attractive, and not overly aggressive, and was offered a job by every firm to which I applied (not meaning to brag: just to let you know I wasn't odd or different).

When I first began working, the very few women partners there seemed so aggressive and cold that I wondered how I could EVER find a role model among them. It didn't take me long to realize that they HAD TO BE THAT WAY!!!!! First, a partner took me out to lunch and told me I was "too friendly." A few months later the SAME partner took me out to lunch again, and told me I was "too cold." Next, when I finished a project for another male partner and asked him if he needed any thing else, he responded "I'LL TAKE WHATEVER YOU'VE GOT..." in a very suggestive manner. Stunned, I said nothing. Another time I was talking with the managing partner about business trips, and he said (out of the blue) "Well, I could see, if we were on a business trip together, that something could happen between us." Stunned again, but this time with some experience behind me I responded "No, it would not, because I would not allow that." UNBELIEVABLE. Today, of course, these partners would NEVER say such things, but who knows if they still think that way! [I forgot to mention the time my legal brief helped exonerate a local attorney, but when it came time to tell the male attorney client, I was asked NOT TO COME because the client didn't want a woman on his case!!!!]

So, I suddenly realized why Hillary is so afraid to "let go" and be sensitive and kind (if she still even has it in her!); she knows what she is up against, and how it is better for a woman to be labeled "aggressive" than "emotional" or "weak." And, like it or not, she paved the way for me, and millions of other women just like me. Hillary is just showing the scars of succeeding in her male-dominated profession, and we should thank her, not criticize her for the way she is....

Sorry for the rant, but in some ways I am afraid the men are turning the women on each other, and we should be more supportive and understanding of where Hillary has been and how she has arrived at this point.

Anyway, that's what brought me to this forum.... and now I feel a bit guilty for taking so long to realize this!"

Hope this helps......

[eeslaomd]

[QUOTE=SoCal4Hillary;6919]Any thoughts on inviting my daughter here to read this thread? I know that now with membership--and the number of threads--picking up, it's hard to avoid getting lost in the shuffle, but I'd really appreciate some feedback on asking her to come here and read what's been said. :confused:

do invite your daughter to come here. there's a lot of good arguments here, mostly carefully thought (and researched) and sincere and well-meaning. we could claim we all come here because we're concerned citizens, who have passions in our beliefs...maybe just like your daughter. trust your daughter to keep an open mind when you ask her to keep an open mind. good luck to you and your daughter!

[MS BLUEGRASS]

I was totally shocked at Christmas when my son, 24, and a PhD candidate at Maryland, and my daughter (26) and a Women's and Gender studies major (Masters at U T in Austin) came home and announced they were voting for Obama! They both did their undergrad at the University of Michigan and I thought that hot bed of liberal think had had some influence! Both of them have always been so supportive of women's rights and human rights. I was especially shocked at my daughter, because she has always been the feminist and quite the independent woman. We talked and I thought they were not listening, but my son was not able to vote, because he had just moved to D.C. and my daughter called me the night of the Texas primary and told me she voted for Clinton! I do not think it was anything i said, but there was something that made her come to her senses! I was so grateful!:eek::eek:

[Lodi]

Phew!:o

[Charlie Brown]

My partner supports Obama. Suffice to say we have had to place a complete ban on politics when we communicate. :eek:

Murray are you serious...Im so sorry...I thought my husband and I would seperate when he voted for Bush and I was for Gore...I thought he was a idiot and I hate to say it but I still harbor resentment over that election and make it very known that I NEVER VOTED FOR BUSH!!!!
He changed to democrat and caucused for Kerry in 04 though. I finally wore him down...:p....we all are for Hillary this time.:) peaceful household if you dont count the cussing at the TV.:o

[Robin Orlowski]

I had an interesting conversation with another PWD---who is still supporting Obama.

I ultimately found out that for all of his 'bravado' he's not very well informed on disability policy issues at all.

For if he were, he would know that Hillary is the only candidate who would prevent insurance companies from excluding people with pre-existing health conditions. A BIG issue for the community. And she's was the only one endorsed by the author of the ADA himself, but not suprising after Obama avoided attending a nationally televised candidate forum on disability policy issues.

Finally, she did the door to door research canvasing which enabled Congress to pass Special Education into law. It enabled me, him and thousands of other people to attend public school--instead of being kept at home--or locked up in an institution.

And it is frustrating that he's been drawn to empty 'emotion' all while turning away from facts which are what would really help our community. I don't think this guy is an evil person, but he's getting peddled a big jug of snake oil which isn't going to do a world of difference for him.

Yes, I am upset with Obama, but I feel for his misled supporters. They are basically good people who have a lot to loose in their own lives.

[HillaryforPresident]

I don't think people should vote for a candidate just because they are a woman and they want a woman president. I will not always vote for women who run for President, if Obama's wife Michelle ran for president I would not vote for her because I do not like Barock and she is associated with him. I have been a Clinton supporter since 1992. In 1992, I voted for nobody in the Presidential election but when Bill ran for reelection in 96 I voted for him, so if Clinton gets the nominee I will vote for her. I hate Howard Dean, he has always been jealous of the Clinton's.I will vote for McCain if Obama becomes the official nominee at the convention.

[Valencia]

I had been looking for this thread since the end of May maybe. I was wondering what is going on with your daughter, is she is still drinking Kool-aid? Hope not.

[CGP]

I had been looking for this thread since the end of May maybe. I was wondering what is going on with your daughter, is she is still drinking Kool-aid? Hope not.

You should have asked me - knew where it was!! ;)

[Oregonian4Hill]

I had been looking for this thread since the end of May maybe. I was wondering what is going on with your daughter, is she is still drinking Kool-aid? Hope not.

As of last week, SoCal's daughter was still an Obama supporter :(. There was a thread where she was asking for advice about an upcoming visit.

By the way, this thread rocks. I re-read it just out of curiosity, but there is SO much great information on Hillary for blogging ammo! Thanks guys, for the reminders on why Hillary will be the best President.

[SoCal4Hillary]

I had LONG ago forgotten all about this thread, but I kept seeing it pop up in my site's stats. [When someone comes to my site via a link on this forum, the thread shows up in my stats as the referring URL.]

Anyway, my daughter and her husband are still bots, to the best of my knowledge. When she and the baby were here last month, I avoided--like the plague--ANY discussions about politics. I wanted to enjoy seeing her and my grandson, without injecting any unpleasantness into the visit by arguing about politics. We had a GREAT time, and I was very, very sad to see them leave. :( 3,000 miles never seemed so far as it does now...

[sakonhagakure]

My memory is blurring this board, the HC blogs, and my own blog, so I can't recall right now if I've mentioned my daughter and her husband on this board. If not, the very brief version is that they're supporting Oblahma. :( A few days ago, a member (who I also "knew" on HC) sent me a poem specifically for my daughter; I'll paste it in at the end of this post for those interested in reading it; it's about sexism and I think it's very powerful, although somewhat dated.

Anyway, I did send the poem to my daughter, and in the e-mail I simply said that someone I know from some forums sent it to me with her in mind, and to let her husband read it, too, if she wanted. Well, here's the e-mail I received back from her (I have her permission to post it):

I'll admit that I was very disappointed with her reaction, and even more disappointed that she has so wholly bought into the Obama nonsense. I'm finding it hard to believe that a female child I gave birth to could buy into his crap hook, line, and sinker. And she sounds JUST LIKE the Obama trolls who posted on HC! Note how she mentions Obama's "vision"--yet doesn't specify exactly WHAT that vision is. Isn't that typical of all Obama supporters you know or have spoken to? So this is what I sent back to her:
That was a couple days ago and I'm still waiting...

Any thoughts? Any ideas how I might be able to knock...er...talk some sense into this [adult] kid of mine? :eek:
[/i]

One thing you could do is remind her that FDR's new deal didn't end the great depression but only exacerbated it. On top of that he introduced socialism to the United States. Let her know what really got us out of the depression was
mass production of wartime goods during ww2. Also Obama's "vision" is nothing but the same class-warfare rhetoric that democrats have been preaching for the past 40 years. If you look at some of Obama's positions it's some of the same stuff John Kerry and John Edwards promised back during the 04 election. For example his giving 5 grand for every new college student is something financially this country can't afford. Also ask her why does Obama chastise conservatives for their overspending during Bush's 1st term (as anyone should) but in the same breath offer billions and billions of dollars in new spending and think that raising taxes on all our major industries and our nations wealthy will pay for it all. (when in reality it would require a major tax height on all Americans.) Also taking from the rich and giving to the poor does nothing but generate more poor people.Also ask her why did Obama say that 4 dollars per gallon gas is good for the country and how a windfall profits tax is going to reduce the price of gas at all.